061 The Art of Mentalizing: Enhancing Interpersonal Relationships through Emotional Awareness (with Dr. Lina Ponder)

We've all heard about mindfulness. But what about "mentalization"? We are talking about how this little-known concept helps us understand ourselves (creating more self-compassion), understand others (leading to more empathy), and connect to God. 

Our guest, Dr. Lina Ponder is a clinical psychologist, psychoanalyst, and spiritual director—so she is perfect for this podcast. She has trained with international experts on the role of early life bonding on the quality of relationships and well-being throughout life. She loves to teach and facilitate the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius as she marvels at the profound convergence of developmental psychology and developmental spirituality.

Discover the critical importance of developing emotional awareness and mentalization skills from infancy, and how our caregivers shape these abilities. Learn how experiences beyond childhood can help overcome early limitations in our mentalizing capacity. Dr. Ponder also shares her insights on accessing our inner worlds through spirituality, reflecting on the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius, and how they can powerfully enhance our understanding of ourselves, others, and our connection with God. Don't miss this enlightening episode that merges the worlds of psychology and spirituality, offering transformative insights and practical applications for personal growth.

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Transcript

Geoff Holsclaw: 0:05

We've all heard about mindfulness, i think. but what about mentalization? Today, we're talking about how this little known concept could possibly help us understand ourselves, understand others and connect with God better. This is the Embodied Faith Podcast. I'm Jeff Holst-Claw, joined with Sid Holst-Claw, and we're helping you move forward by examining and looking at a science where neuroscience informs spiritual formation. and, as always, we're brought to you by grassroots Christianity which seeks to grow faith for everyday people. Our guest today, which I'm really excited to have on, is Dr Lena Ponder. She is a clinical psychologist, a psychoanalyst and a spiritual director. She's perfect for this podcast. She is trained. She has trained with international experts on the role of early life bonding, on the quality of relationships and well-being throughout life. She loves teaching and facilitating the spiritual exercises by St Ignatius. She, along with all of us in the podcast, is marvels at the profound intersection of psychology and spirituality. Thank you so much for being on with us today.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 1:32

It's good to be here. Thank you for having me.

Geoff Holsclaw: 1:34

Yeah, You kind of gave us a story a little bit before we jumped on the air. but how did you get into this kind of bridging between psychology and spiritual formation, becoming a therapist but also a spiritual director? How did God lead you in that kind of journey?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 1:52

Yeah, So my 20-plus years of being in the field. Now we know the answer is usually our unconscious, our autobiographical journeys that lead us to seek out answers. But I was fortunate to hear about the Institute for Spiritual Formation at Biola and I was drawn to that because of what it seemed like, at least from what I was reading, and the little bit of interviewing and dialoguing, that intersection of how our psychology is affecting our relationship with God and how our relationship with God can enhance and even bring healing to our emotional lives.

Geoff Holsclaw: 2:34

Excellent. Yeah, we kind of stumbled upon all this too as part of our own journey of healing and of self-discovery as individuals, as well as in our marriage, for sure. So this is one of Jeff's real deep dive kind of episodes, but hopefully it'll be very practical for all sorts of people.

Cyd Holsclaw: 2:56

I'll try to ask the questions for all the listeners who are like what are they talking about?

Geoff Holsclaw: 3:00

Yeah, So there's often, it seems, in kind of not just the therapeutic world but just like the professional world, the business world, like this idea of mindfulness. We need to be mindful, we need to learn how to be mindful, be present in the moment, which is great. So we're not criticizing that at all. But there is kind of this other term that I've been discovering, and then I found out that you did a lot of work in which is sometimes called mentalization as a capacity or a skill, or sometimes called reflective function, and I was just thinking this seems very important too for mental health and well-being to have these kind of capacities, and maybe it goes by other more popular kind of words. But so when I found out that you kind of did a lot of work in this as a therapist and spiritual director and that you had integrated some of these things, i was like ah, got to have her on, we got to talk about this And real, maybe just as a first kind of attempt, what is this thing? Mentalization sounds funny to say, but what?

Cyd Holsclaw: 3:58

is mentalization.

Geoff Holsclaw: 4:01

Why is it? What is it? What's the definition? That's just like the quick definition of it.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 4:05

Yeah, so mentalization and I know we might touch on some other terms, it's kind of considered the umbrella term, but in short, it's our ability to understand, comprehend, you know, the inner life, the mental states of the other person, so that could be their feelings, their thoughts, their intentions, their motivations, and also in ourselves, and then that matters in our interpersonal relationships, because how we're interpreting could then lead to how we interact back and back and forth, back and forth, and so it has immense implications for interpersonal relationships as well as the development of secure attachments.

Geoff Holsclaw: 4:49

Oh well, we're definitely going to get to this. Yes, i know that's another question.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 4:51

but like it's hard, We're definitely going to get to this.

Geoff Holsclaw: 4:55

That's super important, so tell me if I might be wrong. So sometimes they have to talk about, like, developing a theory of the mind, that children slowly develop the ability to kind of understand that they have a mind, that other people have a mind that goes beyond just the like behaviors that they observe. Is it similar or different to what is sometimes called, like, the skills of metacognition? This is where, like, you can help me Like is this almost the same term or is it a different thing?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 5:20

No if you don't know, i don't mean to stump you, i was just asking, no no, no, no, But I remember like hearing all these terms even as I was learning and growing, and just like, oh my goodness, so I've been in the same spaces. I don't necessarily mean there, you know. I'm sure the researchers have, you know, the demarcations, but I think the theory of mind had, at least originally, more of the sense of the cognitive aspects of thinking about the other. Cognition is more that sense of thinking, about thinking, and I don't think those are restricted to that, but I think that's more the, you know, the leaning or the accent the mentalization is encompassing, you know, yes, the cognition, but really also wanting to, you know, get into the affect and those other domains of intention.

Cyd Holsclaw: 6:09

So, since you just used the word affect, that's something that I know comes up a lot. I know Jeff has used that word a lot, but for our listeners, who don't know what you mean when you say affect, how is, what is that?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 6:24

Yeah, so my mind goes into the academic how they make all these distinctions. But for me when I'm using it, even with my clients, it's kind of our emotional space inside our feelings. I mean there's definitely an embodied sensory component to that. But just kind of going inward into how does that sit with our emotions?

Cyd Holsclaw: 6:48

Okay, okay, that helps.

Geoff Holsclaw: 6:49

Thank you. Mentalization would cover both the cognitive and the affective kind of sense of experience, being able to sometimes step back from that experience and then be able to name it and kind of look at it or something like that.

Cyd Holsclaw: 7:03

And am I hearing? Oh sorry, Go ahead.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 7:06

And I was just going to add, and I think a big piece of it is in the context of relationality, because we could say reflection, or we could reflect on our thoughts and feelings, but in mentalization I think a lot of it right, or experience in ourself, but then it ultimately ends up being this back and forth, and our sense of ourselves is dependent on another too. For us to develop a sense of knowing who we are, we do rely on others for pieces of that.

Geoff Holsclaw: 7:37

So about the interpersonal kind of aspects, because and then back to how is this similar or different than being mindful or being present in the moment or something like that? There is that sense that, well, we all want to be present and in the moment And those are really important skills. But then how are these skills of understanding the minds or the intentions of other people? What does that mean As a skill? how would you kind of help if you came across a client that you felt was deficient in some of those skills? How would you talk to them about it, Or how would you help them kind of?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 8:11

grow in those things. I mean, usually I try to lean in towards where my client or whoever I'm with, where they are, with their experience or perception, how they're understanding the situation, And then building reflective space, building that pause. I mean that's kind of the first movement. I think spiritual direction just almost innately just has that as part of that contemplative space, with a lot more silence and stillness, and that's essential. And then some of the questions, depending on what it is that the person is struggling with.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 8:54

But you could hold a sense of trying to offer well, could it could so, and so have also been thinking about the situation this way and see, right, You have to see a person's responsiveness to that, but bringing, perspective taking. But sometimes people can't go there and it's really sometimes yet to bring the other in. And as a spiritual director, as a pastor, as a therapist, my job might be to help mentalize. We might spend a lot of time mentalizing where they are and that they get to have that experience so that they can even know, right, Their inner life, their inner map, their thoughts, their feelings, their intentions, that eventually then that might create space that they can consider, that there might be a different understanding of a relationship or a moment that they had of themselves and with another.

Cyd Holsclaw: 10:01

So when I work with people, when I do coaching especially, and a lot of times I'll ask people to sort of listen into their self-talk. Is that part of what you're talking about? We're like, a lot of times people we don't really understand how we talk to ourselves, and then when we say out loud, well, this is kind of what I'm, this is how I'm talking to myself, a lot of times people will say those words out loud and they'll be like, ooh, i can't believe that That is how I'm talking to myself. Is that part of the process here?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 10:32

Absolutely Yes, and some people can't do that well and they need to borrow. We all had to borrow the mind of another. And so then your role as a coach. If they hear I don't know how it works exactly in coaching, I know in therapy we might even offer, without intruding upon the other space, but we might offer kind of how we might be thinking of their situation or what they're describing, and then there could be a bridge.

Geoff Holsclaw: 11:06

So it's not like a critical, judgmental, kind of offering right, it's just a listening, it's just asking questions and helping people kind of see themselves through you, whether it's a discipleship or spiritual direction or like a therapeutic process helping them be like oh, i guess I am thinking that way about this thing, or I guess I am helping them see themselves. So mentalization, or that reflective function when it comes to ourselves, is kind of that self-awareness or kind of just self-awareness, kind of peeling back the layers of what we're doing or experiencing. We might give one answer for why we behaved, but after we asked a couple of questions and we're going to be like well, i really did that because I was angry, i did that because I was afraid. Get past a couple layers of rationalization and that work, if someone's weak at that, needs to be done in partnership with people, which is back to community, the interpersonal nature of humanity.

Cyd Holsclaw: 12:06

So how is that skill built in the first place, Since I know you did a lot of your work with early childhood, how does that begin Like? how do we develop the skill of knowing what other people are thinking or feeling and being aware of our own thoughts and feelings?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 12:23

It is by experiencing, usually with whoever are primary caregivers, how well they were able to mentalize for us, how well they were able to notice. I mean, if we're starting at infancy our body states, our needs states and the sense of responsiveness, accurately and consistently recognizing and then appropriately responding to those needs, then, as a child becomes toddler and there can be more back and forth speaking, there's going to be even a lot more words to that naming of the emotions, naming of the situation, maybe naming of the dynamics Oh, you wanted to go on that swing and so and so kind of ran and pushed you to that. Just describing the experience and holding, in a way we can think of that, there's a sense of metabolizing all these life experiences and making sense of it, but bringing order and organization to it and then kind of chewing it up like how Mama cows do and you're giving it back. In a way. That's what we're doing. When that doesn't happen, we have the indigestion.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 13:39

That's kind of just bringing in us, Or if there's a great amount of misattunement, a great amount of what's been given to us isn't actually in a good enough manner accurately making sense of our inner worlds, we then can internalize that actually as a piece of our sense of self. Okay, Yeah, okay, I'm kind of saying to you, oh no, no, we love this.

Cyd Holsclaw: 14:02

Okay, it's just that that brings up. this is something that I often talk with parents about, but I'd love to hear your perspective of the sort of parental default that I know I was raised with, of the like I'm upset as a little kid and my parent looks at me and says, oh, calm down, you're fine. What does that do for mentalizing or what does that do for a child?

Geoff Holsclaw: 14:23

What does that not do?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 14:26

Yes. so I'm laughing because I'm like, okay, wait, like I don't know who your audience is and you know just Well, no, i didn't want to.

Cyd Holsclaw: 14:32

I did it myself as a parent. Yes, You were plenty of times as a parent, so I'm not like being I don't ask that judgmentally, but just like I learned more and more about attachment and about the way the internal life, I was like, oh my goodness, I was doing my kids such a disservice when I said you're fine, because they don't feel fine. So I'm just curious what you were. Yes no, no and.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 14:52

I'm kind of joking, but not because just the whole parent guilt world is real Right and I don't want to add to that.

Cyd Holsclaw: 14:58

Yeah, we're all doing the best we can, but I'm just wondering how we can offer an invitation to anybody who's currently living in that. You're fine.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 15:07

Yes. So maybe a way we could frame it is then, that was, maybe those are some missed opportunities, that those were some missed opportunities to be able to walk into our little kids, in our worlds and be curious, find out, you know, accept right, that's okay, what was happening, you know, why are you? What happened, what are these big feelings about? And then being able to process a bit, and so then they can internalize from that. Okay, my feelings are okay, and when I have big feelings, when I have negative feelings, people are still willing to be with me. When my feelings are too big and overwhelming, my people, you know, want to help me And so in the future I can keep asking for help And then they're able to work through that. Okay, big feelings are hard in the moment, but we can work through this And I feel even, you know, stronger or capable, you know of I mean in a kid version, but I can just kind of be out right In their play and more free kind of worlds that they live in.

Cyd Holsclaw: 16:17

So then, recognizing a lot of us missed that as children, right? Can you talk a little bit about how that then impacts how we go or don't go to God with our big feelings?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 16:32

And so depending, so that has a big piece. as far as that automatic, implicit, you know just how we go to God. I mean, with the God piece, I also feel like there's such a strong component of the explicit. you know what we were taught, the ways that we're encouraged by whoever our different leaders are, the small group experiences we have. So it depends. I mean, some people feel like they can go and, depending on how there's been a coming alongside, they might be able to overcome, even if there was a bit of that in their own childhoods. But those that maybe haven't had other types of experiences, then yeah, then it might have more difficulty in their, especially in their prayer lives to be honest with God, or honest with God about the big feelings, the negative emotions Oh my goodness, can we even be angry with?

Cyd Holsclaw: 17:32

God right. Yeah, I asked that question largely because that's part of my own autobiography, right?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 17:38

Oh great.

Cyd Holsclaw: 17:39

Like I often had this sense, like I think it was an implicit, internal, embodied sense that like I should be fine, like this is not that big of a deal, i shouldn't be this upset or I shouldn't care this much. Right and that sort of shouldn't idea was like this shouldn't be such a big deal. So therefore I'm not gonna go to God with it, because his expectation would be you're like, look around at your life, you're fine, like this isn't that big of a deal.

Cyd Holsclaw: 18:07

And so it took years and years and years for me to start And I still have a lot of room to grow right. But like learning to share my emotional life with God, believing that he is actually okay with where I'm at and like he's never gonna be like, okay, settle down, this is not a big deal, just chill. So that's why I asked the question is because for any other listener out there, right, like we often are encouraged to bring your emotions to God, but it doesn't always feel like God would want our big emotions or that it's okay to bring our big emotions. So I just wanted to pause for a moment, have that conversation.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 18:45

So yes, and I'm wondering what and if you want to answer adult, biographically or clients, but what, yeah, what mediated right For you? you know what helped you to know and see that maybe it could be a different experience.

Cyd Holsclaw: 19:02

Yeah, yeah, for me it was really learning gratitude and appreciation and learning, sort of, to be able to connect with God in a more personal way through a prayer, emmanuel prayer, which is, you know, carl Lehman and Jim Wilder have talked about that, but just really so I had a very earlier experience doing that. That prayer, you know, facilitated prayer, like that which was with another person who was, you know, modeling and mirroring connection. You know, so, modeling connection with God. So then I could mirror that connection with God And then also, in the midst of having that connection with God, just having him sort of surprise me, encountering me in a way that I had never known, i mean, jesus played hide and seek with me.

Cyd Holsclaw: 19:50

I was like that that was completely outside my categories of what God would or would not do, and so that sort of broke the mold and gave me that curiosity of maybe, maybe God can do all kinds of things I didn't know God could do. So for me that's how that began was that sort of disruption of the narrative that I had and the idea that I had of God being more like my parents and less like you know who he reveals himself to be.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 20:21

Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: 20:22

Yeah. So I think, taking these questions about emotions, i want to bring it back to like now it's the 20 minute mark of this episode. I think I could ask, like the mentalization question, which is something like I think sometimes, especially if we were raised well, regardless of race, sometimes we can get into the place of, like I exist as this emotion, like this emotion now spontaneously is coming out of me. I have no control. I think sometimes in culture we kind of, you know, we're kind of encouraged that way. It's like you know, don't stuff your emotion.

Geoff Holsclaw: 20:58

your emotion is good, it's natural or something like that. But mentalization will kind of take a little step back from that, at least as far as I understand. you can let me know, and it will kind of say something like what if we shifted from I am angry or I exist as angry too? I am a person who is feeling angry at this moment because of the situation that I'm experiencing, and so there's creating a little distance between who I am is my core self, however you think of that and this feeling of emotion or anger. And then it also puts it within a certain context so that I can kind of understand it. And so that's kind of how I was thinking of mentalization or that, these skills of being able to create a little bit of distance and sometimes that's a negative thing, but is that kind of true? Is that kind of how you're, how sometimes you help people to kind of understand and narrate their existence, or am I off there?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 21:50

Oh no, i don't think you're often, you're not often how needed of a skill. This is especially right now, and I would say, yes, i mean, if we can even just pause, you know, and then, yes, step back and reflect. You know that, which I think is what I'm hearing you describe, that would be really helpful. And then, in that place, you know, if it's I am, i'm angry, you know, again trying to understand what is. You know what. You're breaking it down. I don't know what the situation is if involved another person, it may not have, but having breaking that down even more. And then, if there are, you know if it's impacting our beliefs about ourselves, if you know other ways that I'm angry, and that's the only conclusion about this and the ways that it's bleeding over. I think that, yeah, i can step in. It's not just the pause and the reflection, but it's, it's how it leads into our thinking, our believing, our motivations and how we assume that of others and the world that we're navigating.

Geoff Holsclaw: 22:54

I like that thought of, like the pause. So this is like just creating a little bit of distance, that's if we talk about how we relate to other people than having that pause when it comes to what I believe you know, since sitting right next to me, right, you know. So it's like, instead of you've done this because of this, it's something that I feel like I don't know what right or what's happening beyond just my experience of you. Like maybe something is happening in since life that I'm unaware of currently. I shouldn't take these things personally. She's withdrawing because she feels sick today, not because I said something wrong or something like that.

Cyd Holsclaw: 23:34

Yeah, I was just going to say so for anybody who's not you know. how would you give people like a sort of a baby step towards starting to work on taking that pause and a reflect like what kinds of questions might people start asking themselves?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 23:52

We're focusing just on the X, you know, i mean there's the going into, you know, bringing our spirituality into it. But just what? what? what's happening? you know what am I? you know what are my thoughts, what are my feelings, what are my body sensations? Just starting right there, could you know, could you know, take a long time to unpack for many, and then, you know, bring, you know, then, separately, you know, thinking of maybe what could be going on for the other, what, what? you know, what am I hearing, what am I noticing? you know that they're saying about their thoughts, feelings, if it's an interaction, right, considering, okay, well, i'm attributing, i'm thinking this is why they're behaving this way, or why they did this to me, or you know that type of thing. But, pausing on that, you know what could be going on for them. Could there be, right, the question of could there be other possibilities? Right, those are just ways to break that down.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 24:51

And then I mean, with our relationship with God, bringing similar types of questions and actually this, this piece of we, some people are more comfortable to access their inner worlds if they're talking about it in the context of their faith.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 25:09

Yeah, i mean, you know there's a spectrum, but some, that's some people, feel a lot more comfortable there. So, even been able to access, okay, well, what do you? what are your thoughts about God's thoughts right now? you know what your understanding of God's feeling towards you In general, sure, but in this moment, you know, especially when there's this active alive, you know experience going on for the person, you know, but, but, right, this, this building of considering God and then even thinking about to what does God think about, how you think about it and how you're feeling about it and your perspective about it, you know, but, yeah, just kind of going back and forth in those ways, but it's slowed down And that's one of the reasons why I love the spiritual exercises of saying it, nacius, because there are so many different points of reflecting this way. Right, i mean, from the examine, you know, to talking with God, right, the colloquy, or, you know I mean you might be able to just took three, three people through this beautiful.

Geoff Holsclaw: 26:06

We should probably do a whole nother episode, just the two of you and you could just talk about it.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 26:11

I'm trying to hijack this podcast, right now sorry.

Geoff Holsclaw: 26:14

No, we probably should.

Cyd Holsclaw: 26:15

No, i think that's a great little moment, you know, just to sort of step in and that, like you know, and maybe you could speak a little bit about, like why, why do you see it as being so essential and helpful for people to really you, like you know, Ignatius was a huge component of imagining ourselves in the story with Jesus and what? how does that relate to this mentalization or to the inner life there?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 26:44

The, the brilliance of the imagining, you know, and entering in this, that you're bringing as much of yourself as possible and then that allows as much as possible to get, you know, activated, that we're already carrying inside And because there's such a commitment right in this virtual exercises of daily, if you're doing it over the nine months, you know, nine months, you know, so it's just over and over and over and kind of getting in there and bringing it to God, i think is, yeah, a big part of the genius there.

Cyd Holsclaw: 27:16

Yeah well, and I know that when I'm, when I'm leading people through, you know, when I'm offering a retreat for people, leading people through, i'm always asking the question you know what? what perspective Did you have as you work? because a lot of times people will describe a story I'll say it were you experiencing that in the first person kind of way, like where did you find yourself in that? And a lot of times I found that people begin with sort of a bird's eye view, like a sort of third person narrator kind of you, and it's only after practice that they're actually able to like be a witness, like in the story. I'm a character in the story, i'm not just narrating or observing from the outside. Can you say something about what might be happening for people when they go from that sort of third person into being a person in the story?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 28:04

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but the first thing that's coming up for me is that we're not well practiced, we're not accustomed to, you know, especially if we're talking about scripture, you know, but there are ways that we're just habituated to relate to, or what faculties, right, a lot of our thinking and, yes, a little bit of reflecting of, okay, how does that touch my heart? But I think, yeah, we're just not as accustomed to it. This one other piece that's popping up that's important to is we talk about reflection, and that's that's so important. I mean, if that's all we did, you know, if we added that which Segal had proposed, you know. the fourth are an education, right, being reflection, that would be, yeah, huge. However, there's a reflecting after the fact. there's a reflecting when we're out of the moment, and that's that's still good.

Cyd Holsclaw: 28:53

But when we're in it when we're activated.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 28:56

You know, and so I think that's you know, with the imagine to prayer, that can help a lot.

Cyd Holsclaw: 29:02

Yeah, yeah, well, and it's, for it takes it out of like cognition and into experience to which I think is just such a. I could talk about the Ignatian exercises all day, but you probably have another question.

Geoff Holsclaw: 29:14

No, i don't. I don't have any other questions, i'm good.

Cyd Holsclaw: 29:17

Yeah, it's just Yeah. How do you, how do you help people grow in their ability to ask better questions about themselves and their relationships? You know, i mean, we talk, like you know, understanding our nervous systems right When you're like and Dan Siegel talks about flipping your lid right, or like, if we're talking about polyvagal, being, like you know, in a sympathetic, reactive state. how do you help people learn to begin to like, engage, curiosity and ask questions, even when their bodies are sort of our lids are flipped, yeah.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 29:51

Yes, the biggest piece is my embodiment, you know, with them, right, it's the modeling, it's the offering, it's that mentalizing, it's the content. I mean, if they're they're you know, if their lids are flipped, however, the right way to do that, but you know they're, they need some containment, you know. And then if it's still confusing, right, it's the okay, my attunement, it's my offering of my way of understanding and hopefully it's, you know, matches them in a good enough manner of what that might have felt like and the implications of that and over time, right, this is the implicit way that can get internalized. And then simultaneously, right, that Siegel writes a lot about top, top down. So that's the explicit bottom up. So I was talking about the bottom up, implicit.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 30:41

And so, simultaneously, we can also offer, you know, to our clients. You know, give them, you know, a couple of the explicit questions to sit with. Or, okay, you know, maybe right now do you notice, you know things got, whatever the language, you know things got big, okay, so you know, how, about we take a pause or let's you know we'll be still together, you know, but kind of teaching them explicitly, just so they have something to hold on to, and that there's an organization there. But I think our big gift is our implicit relational offering.

Cyd Holsclaw: 31:14

Yeah, yeah. That it makes me think of a practice that I love to do with people, which is just Immanuel journaling, which is the going through the prompts of, like, what can I be thankful for? Like, what do I appreciate about God? And then, how do I imagine God receives my appreciation when?

Cyd Holsclaw: 31:29

I say thank you to him And then just going ahead and journaling, like if God is looking at me right now, what would he say he sees as he looks at me, and then what does he hear? What does he understand about what he's seeing and hearing? And then how is he with me in that? And then how is he for me, like, what does he want to do in this space? So that, like I'm just like in the absence of having another person who can be attuned to you, like that, you know, having that ability to be able to say God is attuning to me too. Nobody's ever going to understand my internal world the same way that God does, because God knows me like deeper than I can never explain myself as thoroughly to Jeff as I would like to, right, but I don't have to with God because he's always attuned And so that is just. you know, a way that has helped me a lot with mentalizing too, i think, is yes, that yeah beautiful.

Geoff Holsclaw: 32:24

Well, thank you so much for taking just a little bit of your time. Did you have another question about attachments?

Cyd Holsclaw: 32:30

I know we have several more, but we're in a half hour.

Geoff Holsclaw: 32:32

Yeah, we didn't quite get to secure attachment Outside of just. I could just say, you know, it seems like the research is showing that what we call as attunement, or the ability to build or to offer secure attachment, comes from this ability of being able to read and express minds one to another. And not just minds cognitively, like you said, lena, but the affective state Oh, I can see that you're upset, oh, i can see that you're sad in ways that maybe they don't even know, like, because a lot of us, you know, have been. you know they see someone like a friend and they're like, oh, are you doing okay? And then they're like, oh, yeah, i'm doing fine, and you're like, no, because you don't look fine right. And so you know, even interpersonally we can know how someone is doing, maybe even better than they know right.

Geoff Holsclaw: 33:20

And that comes not from just knowing the person, but it's because we have developed that capacity to kind of understand minds and bodies and how all those things put together, and that leads to secure attachments. you know, and we will just leave it at this, you know that Jesus has come, embodied, and has lived with us to attune to us, so that we can attune to God and that we can build secure attachments. So, but thank you so much. Any last thoughts or questions? for I know usually you're on the question seat and we've put you into the answerer seat today. Any questions or thoughts you want to end with before we go?

Dr. Lina Ponder: 33:56

Let's do this again. I mean even if it's offline.

Geoff Holsclaw: 33:59

Yeah, I'm just like Oh, this is fun.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 34:01

Yeah, thank you Well.

Geoff Holsclaw: 34:03

I do mean, like if the two of you would get together, just do a whole episode of this, the nation. that would probably be a huge benefit to all of our listeners too. So maybe we'll get that on schedule And if you are listening, be sure on Facebook or on any ways in the interwebs. let us know that that is something you all would be excited about. Well, thank you again so much. Please like and subscribe all you listeners on YouTube, facebook or wherever you're listening to this, and that will do this again sometime.

Cyd Holsclaw: 34:35

Thanks so much for your time. Thank you, wonderful conversation with you. You're welcome.

Dr. Lina Ponder: 34:40

Take care Oh, oh hoje Lo.