Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

062 How the Fruit of the Spirit are a Foundation of Resiliency (with Michael Sullivant)

• Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw • Season 4 • Episode 62

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What if the Fruits of the Spirit can build a "nest of resiliency" to weather life's trials?  What if these fruit were less spiritual and more relational?

Join us as we speak with Michael Sullivan, director of relational networks at Life Model Works, who shares his insights on how focusing on LOVE, JOY, and PEACE can transform us into Christ.

Together, we discuss the power of God's "Hesed" - God's love, mercy, and kindness - as an anchor in our lives, and the importance of creating a secure base in our relationships with God and others to develop resilience. Michael explains how delighting in each other and being delighted in by God allows us to experience His presence and radiate joy, ultimately transforming us from glory to glory. Learn how to embrace and work through obstacles in life with the contagious and tangible joy of God's kingdom.

Resources: The Life Model—Simply Explained (PDF)

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Geoff Holsclaw:

What if the fruits of the spirit aren't just spiritual, but they're also relational. What if they aren't just relational, but they actually help us build resiliency in order to weather the trials life. That's what we're talking about today. This is the Invite faith podcast for your Jeff and Sid, a whole squad. We are seeking to help all of us get unstuck through exploring a neuroscience informed spirits information. And as always, we're brought to you by grassroots Christianity, which seeks to grow faith for everyday people. We're Hey there. So today we have Michael Sullivan who is the director of relational networks at the life model works. We've had quite a few people from life model on, Jim Wilder, Michael Hendrix. But Michael, Sullivan, not Michael Hendrix, is in the past a church planner, a pastor, an author, a poet, and a speaker whose latest book is thinking biblically about the life model. And he, for many years, has been involved with ministry and church leaders, helping them integrate relational approaches to being transformed in the image of Jesus. Thank you so much for being on with us today.

Michael Sullivant:

Jeff and said, it's good to see you and good to be with you. Appreciate so much who you are and what you're all about.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Yeah. You have been not on the show so far. We've been on something with you and other situations and contexts, and so we've been a part and friends. Well, and we feel for a little while.

Cyd Holsclaw:

And we feel such a close affinity with life model works. I love life,

Geoff Holsclaw:

for sure.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Your whole group of people is doing too. So, yeah, it's wonderful to be as relational as we possibly can be in this distant virtual world.

Michael Sullivant:

Yeah. Fortunately, the Holy Spirit's not as limited as we are by technology.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Yeah. Amen. Yeah. So we we wanna talk about the trials kind of of life and how we can build resiliency and how really the fruit of the spirit, fruits of the spirit, especially love, joy, and peace can create kind of what you call this nest of resiliency. But before we get into that specifically, can you just talk about how you personally have, like, moved into and benefited from this connection between you know, taking our bodies and brains seriously as well as staying connected to what the Bible has to say about being transformed in the image of Christ.

Michael Sullivant:

Yeah. So I was friends with Dallas Willard and, you know, Dallas talked quite a bit about the physicality of our spirituality in his writings. And and he was friends with Jim Wilder and his wife was involved with Jim in years past at the Shepherd's house when it was a brick and mortar counseling center. And so, Dallas put his thumbs up on the life model, and my wife had PTSD from a traumatic brain injury and surgery. And she went out to Pasadena to get immanuel prayer from Kitty Wilder back in two thousand and ten and she had a miraculous answer to prayer where the symptoms of PTSD abated instantly, and I got my wife down

Geoff Holsclaw:

--

Michael Sullivant:

Nice. -- this happened because of Dallas' influence and because of Terry's experience with prayer, Emmanuel prayer, we thought we got to pay attention to what this is about. And then we ended up making friends with Jim and Kitty and the team associated with the life model ministry, and they recruited me to join the board, and then recruited me to be the CEO And then I stepped aside from the CEO job to be the director of relational networks because it was a better fit for me. So that's kind of our quick journey. Into the life model works family.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Wow.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Yeah, that is incredible to hear that story. I also have experienced amazing dramatic healings from manual prayer as well, and I facilitate a manual prayer and regularly see people healed. So I love that you're you know, there are these different ways of Jesus rewiring our brains in a moment that just don't happen from years of other kinds of work sometimes. So, yeah, it's it's really neat to hear that story.

Geoff Holsclaw:

For any of the you listeners who don't know about the manual prayer, we do have an episode with Carl Layman, so you can go check that out. I don't know what the episode number is, but you can scroll down Carl. With a k and layman. Yeah. Well, why don't we jump in? We were talking about, like, how do we find resiliency for the trials of life? And a lot of times, so when it comes to the fruit of the spirit, the last one is self control. But I think a lot of times we start there with kind of our modern approaches to discipleship or spirits formation. It's all about will power. I'm gonna grip myself into being a better Jesus follower. Or along with that, it is I'm going to think and learn and read my way into a better kind of path for following Jesus. But I think we found that that doesn't really help. So that could be summarized that Jeff Holeslau way of doing discipleship is more will power, more readings. That's often what I find myself doing. So but what if we went to the and I think Michael, you're suggesting, what if we went to the beginning of the fruits of the spirit love, joy, and peace. What if those kind of opened up kind of a new way of being transformed into Christ? Could you kind of like, yeah.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Yeah. Actually, before you unpack that, I think that that analogy they Wait.

Geoff Holsclaw:

I wanna get into the knowledge. I want the idea.

Cyd Holsclaw:

I want the metaphor.

Geoff Holsclaw:

I want left brain stuff that sits going to the right brain stuff. Okay. Just kidding. Just kidding.

Cyd Holsclaw:

No. I just think it would be really hoped that you shared that analogy of the log jam with the splash jams. I think that might be helpful for thinking about why we back up and go to Love Joy and Peace. So it started there.

Michael Sullivant:

Yeah. Well, I don't know about modern times, but I know back in the day in the logging industry, they'd cut down timber throw it into a river below a dam, and they'd get these log jams. And so people would get out there humanly to try to unjam the log jams very dangerous job. And this is where log rolling became a sport because there were these people that could, you know, walk on logs but there was a better way to deal with the log jams they found out and that was to put splash dams in the tributaries that feed the river. And so when they get the log jams, they'd send a signal up to the splash dams, open the splash dams so that so there is this greater volume of water that would rush down from the tributaries into the river and raise the level of the water, so greater volume of water and a greater speed of the water. And the log jams over time would just take care of themselves because of that dynamic. And so the analogy is is that we get jammed up. We get jammed up in our thoughts or in our emotions or in our relationships or spiritually. And what I believe that the neuroscience, the the spirituality informed by neuroscience has revealed is that there are these virtuous motivations that we can tap that are like the splash dams holding back some powerful motivations that we don't often think of as motivations. So love joy and peace are often thought of as virtues, but they're more than that. They are motivations or powerful motivations.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Mhmm.

Michael Sullivant:

They're the most powerful motivations. And so I call them virtuous motivations. And we wanna get those splash dams opened up so that we can get unjammed in our thoughts, in our relationships, in our emotions, and in our spiritual lives so that there's a flow, a a greater flow.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Mhmm. And so just to be clear, opening those splash stamps is not more willpower and more books or even more podcasts that we're listening to, you know, even though we're on a podcast right now. But it's it's the relational connections of love, joy, and be sorry. You were about to jump in and say something.

Cyd Holsclaw:

No. I was just gonna say, like, can you tease out the differences a little bit more between why it's such a significant difference between a virtue and a motivation?

Michael Sullivant:

Yeah.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Like, why does that make a difference for the ordinary person to know that those are not the same thing?

Michael Sullivant:

Yeah. A lot of times, virtues are kind of the end game. Like, oh, I'm gonna be virtuous. But actually, these things are primary and they are powers. They are powers of God inside of us because of the presence of Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit. And so they they're the beginning part. You know, this is this operates in the fast track of our brains, not in the slow track. The will and the reasoning happens in the slow track. So we wanna learn how to lean into the left hemisphere, which is the fast track of our brain and unleash, you know, these experiences. So these virtues are are built up and taken to the gym, I like to say, take your right hemisphere to the gym and work out, And it happens through experiential learning, not from reasoning and will power.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Mhmm.

Michael Sullivant:

Though it's visceral in nature, it's experiential learning either emotional experience, physical experience, relational experience, and seems like there's one other relation relationships spirituality, physical, and

Geoff Holsclaw:

--

Cyd Holsclaw:

Until

Geoff Holsclaw:

--

Michael Sullivant:

and emotional.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Emotional. Okay. Yeah. Good. Yeah. So maybe, like, going back to a metaphor again. So maybe the fruits of the spirit are, like, we think of the fruit that comes on a tree as that's the virtue that will arrive at the end of the cycle, right, that will produce the fruit. But if I'm right, I'm hearing you saying that these are actually more like maybe the tree trunk that they're like the thing that feeds the fruit. Love joy and peace feed the fruit -- Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw:

--

Cyd Holsclaw:

that then comes out later in our And

Michael Sullivant:

I think John fifteen is really about that. Jesus said, you know, this is attachment. The vine and the branches are attached. An attachment is the connection between neuroscience and biblical theology.

Geoff Holsclaw:

For sure.

Michael Sullivant:

It is it is about love. And this is a love bond that we experience with Jesus.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Yeah. So let's start there with the love bond. You'd say the first step of this whole process or the or your your nest or your foundation is that it's radiated by Hasid. That's the love. So can you say a little bit more about that for well, first, actually, let me ask you one other question. Right. Talk about the word nest that you're using.

Michael Sullivant:

Yeah. A different analogy that I like to use is, you know, love joint peace, the first three aspects of the fruit of the spirit. I think of them like being woven together in our lives and in our experience, and it creates a nest in the substructure of our being. And so the nest is there because things sit in nests. So our our right hemisphere is hardwired to experienced six big emotions, sadness, anger, disgust, shame, fear, and despair. Are the six big emotions. And as I thought about those, you know, we've all experienced them. I thought, oh, these are the trials of life according to the new testament term. This is trials hitting us. We don't control whether we experience these emotions or not. They just hit us and they're hardwired into our brains to be experienced. Jesus experienced them and they're not sinful in nature. They're just human experiences in a fallen world. And so, god actually wants to bring good out of these trials that that hit us And so in order for the good to happen rather than the the evil ones plots and plans and schemes, to throw us off track from the trials of life. We want to partner with father son and holy spirit so that we get the good out of them. So if you've got that nest built, then there's a place for your sadness to come and sit, and you can call it what it is. It's sadness. And what does God want me to learn through this sadness? I can keep my relational circuits on. I can stay authentic rather than put on a mask to cope with it. And I can say, okay, God, I'm sad right now. How can I attune with you in this sadness to become more like Jesus Christ? And so then when we do that, the sadness metabolizes and we're able to get the good from the trial. And Jesus showed this to us with sadness, anger, you know, disgusting things that happened in this world. Shame, fear, and despair. We can metabolize these big emotions rather than be waelayed by them.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Yeah. I just that was revolutionary for me when I first learned to think of emotions in themselves are not positive or negative, but they are, you know, something that we can stay relational in, stay connected in, and then that's the way that we sort of digest or as you say, metabolize or process the emotion.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Mhmm.

Cyd Holsclaw:

It was, like, a real like, that blew my mind when I was, like, oh, and what you know, there's so many different ways of looking at emotions, but that one's super helpful.

Geoff Holsclaw:

And the role of, like, secure attachment, you know, in the literature and whatnot is, like, the secure base. So you're kind of describing the nest as the secure base. And the nest isn't a physical structure. It's actually the the the quality of our relationships primarily coming from God, you know, and songs, our refuge, our our fortress, our strong tower. You know, these are all like metaphors that the psalmists give to Yeah. This relationship.

Michael Sullivant:

And and also the family of God and its role in helping to build that resilient nest So when those three virtues, those virtuous motivations weave together, then we we have more resiliency. And and this is what the world needs, you know. This is what Christians need to emote to the world. It changes our way of being. It then changes our style of relating, and then it changes our approach to getting our work done or or our approach to to doing. So I think the order is really important. Being relating and doing. Alright.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Well, let's get into that then. Because I'm really I I like first of all, this, you know, this I'm a Baptist, fundamentalist. So you have the three Rs.

Cyd Holsclaw:

You still are?

Geoff Holsclaw:

As well, you know. I can't the two I was raised with is my early attachments. I can't, like, discard it, you know, so easily. So you, you know, you will iterate here. I love it. So you talk about a radiated by Hesit, which is the the Hebrew word for love. And I think sometimes it's good to use words instead of the word love in English because we're so like, oh, you know, I get that. Yeah. You know? So he said it's just kind of like enduring faithfulness. So could you define what has said means real briefly? And then what do you mean by radiated by Hessid.

Michael Sullivant:

So Hessid is you know, it even has sticky properties in the original uses of the word Hessid. So this is about real love. This is about god's love. God's kind of love. Paul had a difficulty like we do in English with love, the word love, he had the problem with Agape. But what he did was he put new content into the Greek word Agape to make ithesid. Anybody wrote the first half of first Corinthians thirteen to to define what Hessett is. So if you want to know the definition of Hessett go read. First Corinthians thirteen, the first half again. And there it is. It's like, oh, this is like this isn't about loving pizza and our best football team. This is like, Wow. This is god's love that is lovingkindness, mercy, sticky love, love that never fails. Unfailing love. And so that's the definition of of Hasid. And so like you said, it's good to qualify sometimes and call it attachment love because attachment is the link with neuroscience to the theology of HESET. They are actually perfect matches for each other.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Right. For sure. So what do you mean then by focusing on radiated by hessen? What does a person what does that person like that like?

Michael Sullivant:

A person who gets radiated by God's Hessid, gets a download of the presence of God. I'd like to turn the word presence, like a a noun into a verb. So god presences us and we presence one another. We need resinsing by more mature, more loving more resourceful people than ourselves in order to become the the people God wants us to be. And and God's a person too. So he presences us.

Geoff Holsclaw:

And

Michael Sullivant:

so when I talk about be getting radiated by he said, I'm talking about experiencing the presence of the father, son, and holy spirit, literally upon the human heart, upon the human soul, and also the people of God that God sends who are full of his sis. We need these kinds of relationships to to be to change our way of being and we and we begin to experience the promises of what salvation is in the new testament. It's a new heart. It's a new nature. It's a Christlike Nature.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Mhmm.

Michael Sullivant:

And it's already there because the holy spirit dwells within us. And so we we get radiated not by looking out to the culture for our cues you know, but but by looking to God and looking to God's people for our cues and it changes us, it transforms us, and that that new life that's there by grace through faith starts to grow, it starts to, you know, develop. In our lives. Howard

Cyd Holsclaw:

Bauchner: And so you say, you know, after being radiated by Hessid, it's seems like the the progression then is that you become a radiant person. Right? Yeah. Full of joy So you talk about that next step.

Michael Sullivant:

So yeah. And and the the radiating is about being delighted in we are designed by god as little babies to be delighted in by more mature people. And this is what causes us to grow, even our brains grow because we're delighted in by people who are good, you know, and trustworthy. And we need these kinds of secure attachments. And so when that happens for us and and if it didn't happen when we were little babies, God compensates for that and he sends people into our lives and sends his own son into our hearts so that we can be. Delighted in. When we have that consciousness of being delighted in, then it actually rubs off on us and we start to become delightful people and we start to radiate. The radiating that happened to us starts to radiate out from us. So like Psalm, the Psalm says, they looked to him and were radiant. Jesus said, I'm the light of the world, but then he said, you're the light of the world. He puts his light on us and we start radiating that light. So that's the second step is we become more delightful people ourselves. We become the kind of people other people wanna be around. Other people wanna make friends with other people wanna be influenced by because of the grace of god in our lives.

Geoff Holsclaw:

And it makes me think of, like, Moses coming down from the mountain after he spent time with God and how he was beaming with light. And then I think it's first or second Corinthians chapter three that talks about how now in Christ the same thing is happening to us that we are being transformed from glory to glory because the beaming face of Jesus is affecting us such that we become the radiant people of God. And so dwelling in the presence of God like you were saying, and being kind of washed over by the the radiant love of God makes us now radiant people and the joy kinda spills forth. And I think all of us we kinda recognize people in our lives who do that for us, who -- Mhmm. -- when we're around them, we just feel something because they're like radiating this presence and is joy, and it's just like, where did they get that? I want more of that. And so that's that's what's supposed to be happening.

Cyd Holsclaw:

You know, it's going back to that understanding that joy is the experience of being with someone who's glad to be with us and so that when we're with someone who's glad to be with us and they're radiating that joy and then we're like building joy being together. And like you say, it's a new style of relating. It's different than what we normally do when we relate with others. When we have these joy filled connections. Mhmm. So then can you talk about what happens then?

Michael Sullivant:

Yeah.

Cyd Holsclaw:

So you've been radiated by love and you've received all of that gladness and delight, and then you pass that delight on and you radiate delight, and then what?

Michael Sullivant:

And so then what is the doing? Right? We're human beings before we're human doing's. Doing is important, you know, God's called us to accomplish all kinds of good works that he's prepared beforehand for us. You know, the Ephesians two, eight through ten, We're not saved by good works, but we're saved for good works that God's prepared beforehand for us. And so oh, now we've got a mission. Now we've got stuff to do. And this is where we run into obstacles. And we run into trials and we run into disappointments and we run into challenges, all kinds of challenges. So I like to say when it comes to delight, we start taking delight. You know, you gotta take it. You gotta sees it. It's like I'm seizing the delight in the challenge of the assignment God has given to me. And it's an assignment in a fall and in broken world. And low joy environments. So I wanna go into low joy environments and bring more joy because the joy of the lord is our strength and it's the bottom line of the kingdom of god, righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy spirit. And joy is contagious and it's it's joy is tangible. Joy can be felt. It can be seen. And the world needs us as believers in Jesus to shine with that joy and that we tackle our assignments by taking delight in the assignment even though it's going to be hard, there's going to be trials, there's going to be sufferings even. And setbacks. But the the the witness of the Christian throughout history has been, yeah, we suffer but we suffer with joy and delight because we are loved and we're willing to die for this. You know, we're willing to die for it and because we're willing to die for it, we're willing to live for it.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Because we're willing to die for it. We're willing to live for it. That's great. Yeah. So we talked about the love, the joy, the peace. How does that all work together to build the patience? Or the the longest the endurance?

Michael Sullivant:

Because it's so vivid and vibrant and real. Love joy and peace. If I'm centered in love, joy and peace, then I can handle the sadness. I can handle the shame, even of a failure. In my own life, or I can handle, you know, the the anger that I experience. And not and not allow those big emotions to jerk me around like they used to because I'm stable I'm stabilized by the love and the joy and the peace that is so tangible and real that it's what I live for. You know, it's gonna buy.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw:

I think a lot of times, you know, when it comes to the fruit of the spirits, especially these, you know, three love, joy, and peace. People have the sense that, like, oh, well, if I feel sad, if I'm frustrated, if I get a little angry, then love then I don't have the fruit of the spirit, the fruit of the spirit is now. Absent from my life. I need to go get them again and pray more, I need to try harder. But what you're saying is a little bit different. It's rather saying, like, Like, we don't need to deny sadness or anger, frustration, despair. But rather, they can live within this nest that's being created by the fruit. And so we don't need to be overwhelmed by these feelings. And we also don't need to I think the term now these days is called spiritual bypassing. We don't need to become so spiritual that we can deny that we're having a bad day. But rather that these virtues can create this nest that can contain and allow them to be offered to god in kind of an authentic way. Is that could you feel about could you fill out that a little bit? I I know you've, you know, like us, we're in the vineyard movement you're you've lived in an outside that charismatic. We were, like, sometimes we can kinda get sometimes is what called the happy clappy kind of Christians -- Yeah. -- who don't seem to live in the reality of a difficult world. Yeah. So could you talk to that a little bit that, you know, we're not trying to bypass these things, but rather

Michael Sullivant:

really not in space for them. Absolutely not. And I think there's been a problem, you know, in the charismatic, pentecostal, you know, traditions is that we suppress or repress our big emotions. And this is unhealthy, and it's created a lot of break down and scandal even in these movements because there's a mask of happiness that's put on rather than the genuine joy of God. Because the big emotions are not contrary to the virtues. They are experienced in the context of those virtues. So I'll give you an example from my life. When I was a little boy, I like a rough and ready little kid. I'd, you know, three years old, run out into the front yard and skin my knee on the sidewalk. And I was very sensitive little boy also, and so I cry. And I ran into my mama, and my mama was there. And I was hurt. And my mama, she makes me cry. She she would open her arms and hold me and put her beautiful lips on my scrape and kiss it. And as soon as she would kiss it, it was like magic. Like, that didn't hurt anymore. And she'd say, you're gonna be okay. And I love you. And I'm here for you. And then she'd send me back out. And I and I was like, That was painful, but it was so beautiful. Mhmm. And maybe I'll fall down and scrape myself again. I could go get another hug and kiss from my mom.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Yeah. Yeah. So you can

Michael Sullivant:

experience sadness and pain and still have that love and joy and peace underneath it.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Mhmm. So

Michael Sullivant:

that it so that it becomes a part of life and it gets integrated into life rather than denied or repressed.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Yeah. And that care that you received, whether it's through your mom or the community of faith or for others that care that you receive, actually then builds courage for you to go out into the world again. And, you know, so this coming and this going of when things are hard, you can receive the help you need from others from God, from God's community. But then that also then gives us the strength or the resilience to go out and to pursue God's mission, to whether the trials and to suffer, suffer well -- Yeah. -- for the good things it got. So the the care that has given to us builds the courage so we can go out and it kinda keeps cycling back and forth like that.

Michael Sullivant:

Yeah. And and I think another thing we didn't talk about it underneath that love is a lack of fear, you know, than that a lot of people come into their faith through a fear bond.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Mhmm.

Michael Sullivant:

And that fear bond has to give way to a love bond. And I think that we've I think we've taught about the fear of the Lord in the body of Christ. I think we've had some misconstruing and some hermenutical imbalances that we have introduced when it comes to what it means to fear God. Because it's it's it's got a there's a kind of fear that is toxic, and we gotta expose that. And I think a lot of Christian people, a profess Christians through the through the centuries, have had oftentimes a fear bond with God that's not healthy.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Yeah. So true.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Yeah. I talked to so many people in my coaching and spiritual direction work that have that fear bond, and that's a lot of what we're doing together. Trying to shift that to a -- Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw:

--

Cyd Holsclaw:

to a love bond. So on that note, for anybody who's listening to this and saying, wow, love joy piece. That sounds fantastic. How do I get there? Like, what do I how do I how do I get to that place of building this nest of love joy peace? What would you say to them?

Michael Sullivant:

Well, that's such a great question. You know, the the things that we've written about in our we have this stable of books. I think there's, like, thirty of them now. Yeah. One of the great ones is called the Joy Switch by Chris Fauci. And I would recommend that book maybe as a starter book because Chris goes into some real basics of how to build how to build more joy in our experience. The the book, the other half of Church, also talks about putting joy even before Heasted Love. Because the the water level of joy needs to go up in our experience, then the love will start to be felt more easily. So I think that we we can start with building more joy in our relationships in our families and in our churches and and our fellowships and with God personally as well. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw:

I think Sid and I got in a fight about that on a podcast earlier. We did a whole episode on whether in one sense joy comes before love or how did those two fit together. So and for all of you listeners too, and I'll put this in the show notes we did have.

Cyd Holsclaw:

It was a fight. I think it was a very

Geoff Holsclaw:

Oh, I'm just making energetic. It was a discussion. Yeah. But we did interview Chris Crissey about the Joy Switch too. I'll put that in the show notes, and it's an excellent book. I can definitely recommend it.

Michael Sullivant:

Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw:

For sure. Well, I know you're involved in a couple other ways, more practical things, shouldn't I? You know, we have our attaching to God kind of cohort, but you do a great little study group called learning to become a full brain follower of Christ that's built around the book, the other half of the church, which was published by life models by Jim Wilder. Michael Hendrix. So that's one way too that people could kind of journey a little further on this. And then for those of you listeners, Michael sent to me, he's very gracious to send a PDF that that you wrote up, I believe -- Yep. -- it's called the life model explained, and it really goes into A lot of the neuroscience in the brain, how does the brain work? I was writing on kind of an extra brief explanation of relational neuroscience and why it's important for spirits information and Michael sent this over to me, thought I'd be interested. And I was like, I am interested in that. And how about if you jump on the show and we'll talk. So that's how this episode came to be. So those will be in the show notes. But any other kind of things that you wanna let us know that you're up to or ways that people can connect with you, Michael.

Michael Sullivant:

Yeah. Just our website life model works dot org kinda has a bunch of stuff that's there for free. And different ways of interfacing with our ecosystem of people who have adopted neurotheology. Right? It's like This this new thing on the block is not new, but the ancients intuited so much of this, but they didn't know the brain science Now we know the brain science and it's like, here's my statement. I say now that we know more profoundly how the brain operates and how God designed the brain to operate, it allows us to cooperate more effectively with the holy spirit to become more like Jesus. And so to me, this is marvelous. It's like, you know, one person said, you mean science is catching up with God?

Cyd Holsclaw:

Yeah. I go, yeah.

Michael Sullivant:

On many, many fronts in our modern world, you know, the astrophysics and the and the quantum physics it's just like all pointing to this brilliant person, you know. And one day, we're gonna stand before him and we're gonna go, You really were a great scientist, worksheet, and

Geoff Holsclaw:

you guys Right.

Michael Sullivant:

Very much. Yes.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Yeah. I love it. Well, for all of you listeners who are watching us or listening, please like and subscribe scribe on iTunes. You can find us on Spotify as well as YouTube under my channel, Jeffrey Holeskla. Again, all the other links will be in the show notes. Please pick up that stuff and please keep following. And maybe I wrote this down for a future show, maybe we just need to talk all about shifting from fear bonds to love bonds, shifting from a insecure attachments to secure attachments. So maybe that'd be a fun topic. Yeah. So thank you again so much.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Yeah. Thanks so much, Michael.

Michael Sullivant:

You're welcome. It's great to see you guys again and be with you. Thank you for the invitation.

Cyd Holsclaw:

Yeah.