How do you escape enemy mode? When your brain and body are just against someone (and maybe you don’t even know why). What if one brain state could explain why we stop listening to, talking with, or caring about, other people? What if this brain state reveals why we lose it on people, fall out of love, and traumatize one another?
Clinical Psychologist & Neurotheologian Jim Wilder is on to help us unravel the concept of enemy mode, a state of mind that can lead to division and hostility. Jim guides us to understand the intricate triggers of enemy mode, offering practical advice on action we can take to reconnect and restore our relationships.
Find out about Escaping Enemy Mode and Jim's work here.
Join Attaching to God Learning Cohort: Quieting an Anxious and Avoidant Faith.
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How do you escape enemy mode? When your brain and body are just against someone (and maybe you don’t even know why). What if one brain state could explain why we stop listening to, talking with, or caring about, other people? What if this brain state reveals why we lose it on people, fall out of love, and traumatize one another?
Clinical Psychologist & Neurotheologian Jim Wilder is on to help us unravel the concept of enemy mode, a state of mind that can lead to division and hostility. Jim guides us to understand the intricate triggers of enemy mode, offering practical advice on action we can take to reconnect and restore our relationships.
Find out about Escaping Enemy Mode and Jim's work here.
Join Attaching to God Learning Cohort: Quieting an Anxious and Avoidant Faith.
Stay Connected:
How do you escape enemy mode? What is enemy mode when your brain and your body are just against somebody? What if one brain state could help explain why we stopped listening to people, why we stopped talking with people, why we stopped caring about people and what can be done about it? Say we're talking with clinical psychologist and neurotheologian, jim Wilder, to talk about how do we identify and overcome enemy mode. As always, this is Jeff Holstglau. We'll be joined with Sid Holstglau. Also, this is the body faith podcast, where we're trying to help people get unstuck in their spiritual lives through a science-informed spiritual formation. As always, we are brought to you by Grassroots Christianity. Welcome, jim, to the show. We are so glad that you are here.
Geoff Holsclaw:I forgot to do the whole introduction, but you are the author of many books Renovated God, dallas, willard and the Church that Transforms, as well as the other half of the church. You work, you're kind of like this founding member and leader of the Life Model Works group. You just recently authored and released the book Escaping Enemy Mode how Our Brains Unite and Divide Us, which is what we're talking about today. Thank you so much for joining us. It's great to be with you, Jeff and Sid. Well, so your work.
Geoff Holsclaw:As you know, this is now the third time you've been on the show, which I think is the record, so you're leading the pack here on recommendations. But, as we've said in previous shows, you know, sid and I became familiar with your work through people in Chicago. You know, one time Sid came back from this training and she was like hey, you know, like there's this thing in our brains, like they call it, like the relational circuits, and when it's on, like we can communicate better, and when it's not on, then bad things happen. And I was like, being the intellectual that I am, I was like, oh, so there's like a brain state that I can cultivate or learn about, that helps me relate to my wife better. I should probably learn about that more, and that was, you know, probably 15 years ago. That started us on this journey.
Cyd Holsclaw:But now I'll just say it radically changed the way I parented to learn that it was it was that's. That's originally what brought me to that. Training was okay. Parenting is bringing out all sorts of ugly in me I got to do something to figure out how to deal with this, because I don't want to raise my kids this way.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, that's really clear to us when we're doing it the way, we regret, but right now it's supposed to work. No, exactly, no one really gave us the manual on that, so yeah.
Geoff Holsclaw:Well, and so you've been a part. You know, we had Chris Curcian a bit ago to talk about the joy switch and cultivating joy, which is how you get into this kind of positive kind of mind state of having your relational circuits on. But now you've kind of taken this other topic, which is what you're calling enemy mode, which is almost the reverse it's not just that your relational circuits are off, it's maybe something even more malevolent. So could you, could you just kind of explain where did this idea come from? Outside of you know Jesus saying love your enemies and pray for them, or something like that? How did this book get written? How did you and your co-author get started on this?
Dr. Jim Wilder:Well, what Jesus had to say about loving your enemies certainly was a very strong influence and we can get back to that. But the you know basically about the time that this really came into focus for me was when the whole COVID vaccinations and red states versus blue states and the police violence, all those things were happening and I'm looking at people getting into fights about everything. They can't go home for Thanksgiving or Christmas or holidays because they're going to be a conflict with the rest of the family.
Dr. Jim Wilder:So you know as you're walking through the grocery store the story is at the beginning of the book and two older ladies are, you know, banging carts into each other, you know, and yelling about masks. I thought, hey, wow, there's something going on here. And for about 20 years I've said that you know. We really have to solve the problem of how the brain goes about hating people, because hate underlies almost every nasty thing that happens. So why is it that suddenly people who you know otherwise, claimed to be Christians, are, you know, acting hostile, and they don't see what they're doing. In fact, they justify it. So I thought, you know, we got to understand this better, and I wasn't reading any place that was explaining it. So that was the motivation from just life, and I think most of us have lived through that alienation. I think most of the churches in our area lost large numbers of members, either because they wanted masks or because they didn't want masks, you know? And if that's enough to break up the church, what's the mechanism behind it? How does that work?
Geoff Holsclaw:Yeah, for sure that happened with our church.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah, and I'm glad that you're naming that. It was a very mystifying kind of surreal experience to see so much, so much of that like protection and attack and so much of that happening amongst people who, out of one side of their mouth, are saying we're following Jesus and not at the other side of their mouth, are saying I'm against you. So I just really resonate with that and I so appreciate that that led you to say what is going on in the brain that has made this so much the sign of our times. It's just it affected everyone.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, Devastating for most families. Still to this day, there's still you know that undercurrent right there, even if we kind of got back to being nice to each other, but it's like but don't bring that up because you know Uncle so and so, or Aunt so and so, or me is going to go off yeah it's so true.
Geoff Holsclaw:Well, and the thing that I really noticed about the book and that you kind of mentioned is that it's not written like just for Christians, it's rather written for a broader audience and you really kind of bring in what I really appreciate is you're bringing in conversations of certainly neuroscience, but also corporate culture and workplace kind of scenarios. You're bringing in a lot of conversations about the military and how kind of higher levels and how people are trained in the military. So it just brings in all these kind of like aspects of our lives to kind of show how is it, how is it that these things are all kind of working. I think that's so important, so needed, it's so helpful to kind of look at all these different layers, because you started with this like this question, rather than starting with the answer. Right, yeah, we didn't.
Dr. Jim Wilder:We didn't know how the brain did it, but there was one thing that's really clear from the literature and that is that hate is not based on opinions or beliefs. And if I listen to culture everywhere I'm going around, it's like well, you believe this, so you hate. You believe that, so you hate, and that's all these. This close tie between hate and belief and the brain simply doesn't work that way. That was already pretty clear in the literature. So I said you know, we have to really figure out how these things do interact, because it's also obvious that hateful beliefs interact with something. But how does that go together? And is our Christian beliefs the cause for Christians being so hateful?
Dr. Jim Wilder:because that's how we're being portrayed in the right in the media and you know, the the science says no, they're not, it's not our beliefs that make us that way. But then what does? And no one could say what, what was actually happening. And so we sort of set out to solve the problem and we proposed to a publisher you know, can we write a book about trying to solve this problem? At the end of the book it may conclude you know, here's how it works. Or it might conclude you know, we, we can't figure it out, but somebody needs to do this, and here's what we've done so far.
Dr. Jim Wilder:So it was a very interesting adventure to set off with and then to co author it with a retired army general who spent his whole life, you know, fighting enemies. And I'm sort of I come from a pacifist tradition in the Christian church and, and you know the social sciences and it's like, well, I'm not so much in favor of fighting people. So, and how does that fit together with beliefs? It made a real interesting mix while we're while we're trying to write a book.
Cyd Holsclaw:How did the two of you even come to a place where you wanted to figure this out together?
Dr. Jim Wilder:Oh well, it was rather funny because we were thrown together. I, right at the time that I was deciding I have to figure this out, our board of directors announced that they had just hired a new CEO for our organization, life model works, who was a retired general. And so my, my boss suddenly is, you know, this military man, and we're an organization who's trying to figure out how to teach the world to love your enemies. You know, christians are statistically about one out of five people in the world. So if you get every Christian to love four people, you know we cover the globe. And he's like I'm not sure that's going to work and so it was so. Well, you know, we have to solve this together. That's what you know, what you were hired for and that's what I'm here for. And so, yeah, that's very unlikely relationship that started up.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah, what a great way to begin, yeah.
Geoff Holsclaw:Well, let's jump into what is enemy mode, and then you talk about three specific kind of expressions of that. But could you give us kind of your baseline definition of what enemy mode is?
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, some kind of a predetermination in your brain that the person on the other side isn't is against you, they're not on your side.
Dr. Jim Wilder:And so we react very, very quickly to other people. You know, by perceiving that they're not going to be on our side, with little, something sets us off and from that point on, you know, our interest in listening, our interest in attuning to and our listening to, you know, wanting to be close to them kind of disappears, goes out of the window. It's like you know. You know, I'm not sure I like you or I want to be around you, and often the case is the person actually would like to explain something to us. They would, they would like to, you know, share some thoughts with us, but our brain is going I'm not listening to you. Inside me, I feel like, you know, I'm just waiting for you to stop talking so I can say what I'm going to say. You know, and I know my brain is not listening to you. It doesn't. You know, I don't want to know what you have to say, because I already know you're, you're not on my side.
Cyd Holsclaw:So that makes me think of so. In my coaching work, I often, you know, talk with clients about helping to understand what's happening in their bodies, and the way that I have explained it is just, you know, talking about the autonomic nervous system and how we can either prioritize connection or protection, but that it's nearly impossible to do both at the same time. So does that kind of fit with what you're talking about, with the enemy mode? Is that? That is that flip from? Connections no longer matter to me, I'm only prioritizing protection.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Definitely the case that all the modes, that the ways that the brain does enemy mode, involve shutting off the connection, relational connection with the other person. We've just got several ways of doing it, but all three ways of staying disconnected with you is I'm not going to share life with you now You're not on my side. So part of its protection, part of it is wanting to win. So there's another motive in there.
Geoff Holsclaw:Well, let's go with the first one. Then you have and this is super helpful is that there's like three different expressions of enemy mode. You know, when I first picked up the book and I always heard about this project I was like, oh, this is so exciting. And I was like, oh, there's three levels.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah, that was fascinating.
Geoff Holsclaw:This is the simple enemy mode. What is that and what's happening in the brain gym?
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, the simple enemy mode is the most common, and that's when my brain just sees you as going to be a problem coming my way right from the beginning. So one of the classic examples is that you know, my basement is where I do my writing, and there's a stairway right over there and my wife would come down the stairway. She wanted to talk to me about something, and my brain would go oh, she's here to interrupt my work. I'm very busy writing about relationships and their importance and she's gonna wreck my work, you know. So she's not on my side.
Cyd Holsclaw:That sounds kind of familiar. There's someone in my house who used to respond that way.
Geoff Holsclaw:I'm not downstairs, I'm only down the hall, even closer.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, I do it too.
Cyd Holsclaw:So I'm not just saying Jeff, I do it too.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah. So here's this very funny thing I already know she's not gonna be on my side before she's done anything at all. And you know, there's some people like I can go to the clerk on the gas station or something like that. It never occurs to me that they're human, so I treat them with some indifference. But it's not enemy mode, it's just not being relational. Right now I'm just trying to get my credit card to work.
Dr. Jim Wilder:But this case there's the anticipation that this is going to be bad, and so how does? How did I shut down my desire to be relational with her? So to jump a little bit ahead, I remember when I was in college and we were dating, I used to drive halfway across the state of Minnesota, 40 below, to see her. And you know I would say to myself when she came down the stairway you know this is the same person I would drive halfway across Minnesota and 40 below to see. So I think there's something about her I must like. Now that she's coming down into my basement, this should be a good thing, but let me see if I can remember why I like her. And I'd have to get my relational circuits on and then I'd be interested to hear what she had to say, and so I had to overcome my negative predictive bias. That comes from the level of the brain.
Cyd Holsclaw:How do you catch yourself in the act of doing that, because that's something that I'm always, you know, working with clients about too, is that? How do I? How do I have that moment of pause where I'm able to observe? I'm starting to look at this person as an enemy. How do I make that switch to actually being able to observe that and make a different choice? How did you get to that place where you could move from? She's a danger and a threat to this is the woman I drove across the state to see.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Well, there was really several ways of doing it. One was to notice that I wasn't present in my body. So my body tenses up instead of having a smile on it, and so. But a second way that I would do it is I began the practice of trying to share my face with Jesus. So if I could be present in my body and I could share my face with Jesus, and every time I saw somebody I would want to let my face reflect what Jesus was feeling, and I could sense, you know, because my I could start to tense up.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Okay, she's here, she's, she's going to wreck my sentence that I'm working on and I go, I'm feeling tense, but I'm supposed to share my face with Jesus. I don't feel like it. Where is he? Where is she? Well, why am I not? Why am I not present in this moment? And the second thing is, I gave her permission to tell me when it seemed like I might be an enemy mother. Okay, so it takes just a few loops through that and your brain starts anticipating oh, you know, hey, you're headed, you're in, or headed into enemy mode. And so, by little practice now, the first few times we practiced it went badly. But that's how practice goes right.
Cyd Holsclaw:Right.
Dr. Jim Wilder:So those are some of the things. I don't know. If that answered your question.
Cyd Holsclaw:Well, I mean I have a lot more. You know we could talk about a lot more detail, but I know you're actually going through the three states of enemy mode right now we can, we'll definitely get to the how do?
Geoff Holsclaw:we how do we solve or get out of the different modes. But like it sounds like you're just kind of saying, like you got to wake up the brain a little bit, wake up the relational circuits, become a little bit more aware, but for the second one, stupid enemy mode, that's not, that's not all that needs to happen. So what is, what's the difference between what you call simple enemy mode and what you all call stupid enemy mode?
Dr. Jim Wilder:Well, simple, enemy mode certainly be characterized as being very low energy. I'm like, I'm not here, I'm not engaged in anything. You know, it's almost like my brain is asleep, but stupid. Enemy mode is a high energy state. Actually, the singulate cortex is getting too energized and it's flooding the relational circuits and so causing the cramp you might say. Or if it was a muscle, it'd be a cramp, but in this case it's just, it's pushed the top end of activity and so I'm getting upset, I'm very energized about something and I'm likely to say or do something that I look back at.
Dr. Jim Wilder:I like to say, oh, that was so stupid. You know, I hope nobody took a video of that one. You know, that was definitely not my best self. Coming through Like those are the moments you want to delete from your life and day when you're done with them. And so what basically happens? Now? You got a lot of energy in your system. You're upset about something. It could be actually even you could be excited. You do something this stupid, but you can also be angry or afraid or ashamed or any of the, any of the emotions, and your response is something that doesn't reflect your best self, simply because when your brain gets that active, it stops putting the messages through to your prefrontal cortex, where you're supposed to decide, well, what would be the best thing to do at this point. So those are the ones that people recognize very easily in themselves and others like Stupid.
Geoff Holsclaw:Well, you just mentioned a little bit of like how the brain processes information, but could you go into that just a little bit more?
Cyd Holsclaw:Just, you know how those different brain, because you go into it quite a bit in the book, but just have the different brain structures because it's also as important when we talk about the third section, which is the intelligent Well, and especially the role that implicit memory plays, in that I think a lot of people don't necessarily have that understanding of implicit memory and how it's how it behaves, so I would love for you to bring that into this stupid enemy mode explanation as well.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Well it's just a slightly little more complicated than than that. The the brain has essentially two very different pathways. One is the energy pathway how much energy am I going to need for this? And so that is extremely fast and extremely low level. Then in the brain it's like, you know, down below our eyes, down here it's running from in and it says you know your loud sound behind you, you are suddenly cranked up on adrenaline. Whether you need it or not, you know, it just turns out. You know your child dropped their book on the floor and there was no need to have a rush of adrenaline. But the adrenaline pathway energizes you before to ask any questions. It is super fast and super undiscriminating. So now, whether you need it or not, you've got a whole bunch of energy potentially running in there. Now you go through the upper pathway, which you know it will run up through this part of your brain, up more through the top, and that one goes through your amygdala and it will say, okay, now is this good, bad or scary, you know, and it'll either add or or change the energy a little bit.
Dr. Jim Wilder:But as it's going through that area, it starts pulling in your memories of anything that's been similar to this. So what happens? Last time? Well, right today, I've got a blue shirt on. I remember one. One lady that came to talk to me had been on a cruise ship taken over by terrorists, and they all wore blue shirts. So every time she saw a blue shirt her brain pulled in. Here's someone trying to kill me. So, as you might guess, the first two few times we visited I couldn't wear a blue shirt in the office because she'd freak out and run out the door.
Dr. Jim Wilder:But that's your amygdala pulling back and analyzing, you know, the memories of your hippocampus and saying what do we have on file about this? And if it's terrifying, well, we're going to add more energy to it. And that's always in the past. Anytime you've learned something, your brain remembers it and goes like well, I'm remembering blue shirts. It doesn't really matter whether in the present a blue shirt is a threat or not. The implicit memory just says what is my previous experience, you know? And so it loads that in extremely fast way, before you're even conscious.
Dr. Jim Wilder:And now we've got something that's being activated and the whole, the whole singular cortex, can't really tell whether something's from the past or the present. At the moment, that's not the part of the brain that does life in the present. So it feels like it's happening again now, and that's the nature of implicit memory. So anything that would have set us off in the past will trigger this kind of reaction again. And now, if the brain is running properly, it'll move it all up to the prefrontal cortex, which will take over and say okay, thank you for the warning, let's see if that's still the case. But if your singulate shuts down, the brain messages you. The brain messages don't get all the way to the front and instead of checking it out to see if it's still the case, we get upset all over again and it feels to us like it's happening again now.
Geoff Holsclaw:And that's why you call it the stupid enemy mode. Certainly because we feel it's stupid, or maybe you feel like you did something stupid, but it's because the, the evaluative, the kind of advanced planning and certainly the living in the present being, it's not getting to that part of your brain to be more thoughtful. We wouldn't want to say more rational, although that's part of it, but yeah.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Well, it's part of it, but it's also the living in the present part of it requires us to have successfully processed the scary experiences and had experiences from the past. If we didn't process them well, they will load in and they'll still be in their unprocessed state, so they'll feel like they're still true now, even when they're not. And a lot of people actually know what those things are. They call them my buttons. You know my triggers and stuff like that. And I remember one lady articulated it very well Don't keep saying that, because you're going to make me get stupid. She could feel it coming on, like you know, but not knowing that you can actually process these experiences. So we don't have to get stupid. A lot of us carry a list of them around, like you know. Well, don't bring that up because that you know. It reminds me of my mother or my dad or somebody else and whatever that does, my reactions come out and afterwards I go like, uh, did we have to do that?
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah, and you raise an interesting point when you say that you know we don't realize we can actually process those things like I mean, it brings up a. So when Jeff and I were married, we'd probably been married for maybe two years and we only had one car and he was picking me up from work every day, and one day he came to pick me up. There was a miss, we were had a miscommunication about where I was and he ended up picking me up what like half an hour late or something like that. By the time he came to pick me up, I was in a full state of panic, um, because I had lost my father in a car accident and I'd lost my mom suddenly, and so in my mind he was already dead.
Cyd Holsclaw:And my immediate reaction after that was to sort of lecture him on like you can't ever be late, you have to always be when you be where you say you're going to be. You can't ever not. Like you can't ever not be where you need to be, which was me trying to make him accommodate this trigger that was so deep for me. Um, but actually through Emanuel prayer and through Emanuel journaling, I was able to process those old pains and those old assumptions. And it gets to a place now where, like I, can fall asleep while my teenage sons are still out of the house, because I don't have that panic trigger anymore. Um, but that's just was. It was such a revealing example to me of I don't have to make everybody else in my life bend to figure out how not to ever trigger me. I can actually process these old memories and be free of that trigger and that panic. Um. So I just that people haven't experienced that.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, people haven't experienced that. They hear what you're saying and they're going like, yeah, well, that's easy to say, but it doesn't work.
Cyd Holsclaw:Well, it wasn't easy to do the work, to process it.
Dr. Jim Wilder:That's the point, and you have to sort of know how to do that also. Yeah, and we'll probably get into that conversation a little bit later too.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yes, I keep, I'm keep rabbit trailing. I'm really good. No, no, that's right.
Geoff Holsclaw:Yeah Well, we get to the kind of the solutions and what can we do about these things? I do want to get to the last one. So if, like, simple enemy mode is more of the cold, low energy, relational circuits are off, kind of situation, the stupid enemy mode is the. You take that, but you add a lot of intense emotions and maybe some implicit memories and triggers and and traumas, you know, and the you know, um, but then there's what you call, uh, intelligent enemy mode. You really missed it here because I'm, you know, I was raised a good Baptist. We could have called that strategic enemy mode. Then we had had three s's. It would have been great. But you Second edition, you can update it at you, um, but but you call this more of like the cold and calculating it's. It's neither totally disconnected from people it's, it's connected to emotions, but it's anyways. Could you walk us through what you mean by strategic? And it's so sinister too, but could you walk us through this intelligent, uh, enemy mode?
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, well it. It came out of the observation, obviously, that some of the people who are, um, really hurting other people are very calculated about it. Uh, you know, sort of sociopathic they. They actually have pretty decent empathy. They know exactly what's going to hurt they know. They know exactly what's going to intimidate you they. They know exactly how much pain something is causing you and they think, good, uh, that'll help me win.
Dr. Jim Wilder:And so, uh, the literature about sociopaths indicates that if you take, uh, human warmth, attachment, out of the brain, the other motivation that takes over is is the desire to win, and that runs through the brain's cold anger system. So there's a hot anger system that makes you stupid. There's a cold anger system that makes you calculate it. Uh, and then you're calculating how to make the other person lose. And that's the weird thing about the brain that it thinks if I can make you lose, I win. But very often we have a case where we cut off our nose to spite our face. You know that we. All you have to do is watch politics for a minute and you realize one side is trying to make the other side lose, when it actually would be to all of our advantages if you know we won something here. We did. You know the word. We're getting rid of a good solution here, just so we don't let them win, uh, and you see that in divorces I mean, uh, you watch people fight over stuff in divorces. You go like you know what. You're just trying to make the other person lose. That the other person's going to win on this is the lawyers are going to make off with, uh, you know, buckets of money. You look at businessmen that made huge, or women They've made a huge fortune and then they lose you know half of it to a divorce over and over again. You know these. This idea of winning is causing a lot of losing. I tell you what.
Dr. Jim Wilder:But what ends up happening in the brain is that, instead of staying connected with you, um, I create uh, an as if person. Uh, right up here and for the start of prefrontal cortex, I can create somebody, uh, sort of like a, um, uh, an ideal version of what I want you to think I am, so that it's this uh illusion that I often believe is my real self, but it's not embodied, it doesn't feel connected to the, to my body, to the world. It's just. This is what's going to get results, and, unfortunately, that's where most people put their Christianity. So they, you know, uh, you know.
Dr. Jim Wilder:I remember numerous preachers saying to me well, you fake it till you make it. Uh, you, uh, that's how you go about loving your enemies are caring for people, and so that's what Dallas will have used to call sin management. Like, inside you've got the other reaction, but you're going to manage it so that it doesn't look that way on the outside. Uh, and kids tend to call out hypocrisy and want to leave the church, and so, uh, there's all kinds of defects in this way of doing business.
Dr. Jim Wilder:But keeping our managing our image, doing whatever it takes to win, to come out ahead, that is what cold enemy mode is. It's not really trusting you, because I don't think you're on my side, and we often have a feeling well, if you really knew me, you wouldn't like me, but I'm going to create this image, a sort of an avatar, kind of a way of life that most successful people seem to be indulging in, including a huge number of Christian leaders. So that's one of the things we set out to figure out why is it that so many Christian leaders end up failing in their relationships? They say well, they don't trust other people. They have created a nice Christian avatar that makes the church look good and successful, but inside it doesn't match who they really think they are. So that's the intelligent enemy mode and it's sort of it covers the most chilling people in the world, like people who run death camps, but it also might cover your deacon board. So I mean, it's this whole range of people that could be running an avatar.
Cyd Holsclaw:And just to be clear, I mean, would you say that to some extent, probably all of us have been in that mode, at least for moments? I mean that there's like moments where we're more concerned about preserving the ideal self that we want to present to the world. I mean, isn't that kind of what makes us do things like tell little white lies or make excuses for things that we've done, like you bring up the verbal logical explainer later on? Is it kind of that behavior? That's sort of managing what I want you to think of me. I'm just curious.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yes, it goes back to what you were saying earlier about bodies. Both of you have mentioned bodies and that is that, as the signal is going through your brain, you know the back and it's moving its way forward. It gets right up about to here. That's where your avatar part is and it's supposed to make predictions for you. That's its job, and if you stop there with just here's, I predict things and here's what I'll do to get the best outcome. Now you're externally focused and directed. You're trying to control the world. If you're, when you're singulets on fire and you're trying to keep other people from triggering you, you're trying to control them so you don't get upset. Now you moved a little bit farther forward. Now you're trying to control them so you get the outcome you want. So it's much more intentional, but it's still not you being present in your body where.
Dr. Jim Wilder:I would have to be connected with you enough that, however this turns out, I'm going to share your experience with you because I'm going to be present. So this, you know, sort of calculated, I say living about an inch behind your face. So you know you put your face on the way you want it to be, but the real you is living just an inch back there, hiding and not really sharing life in the moment with other people. And so this gets kind of closer to what people are looking for with mindfulness or trying to be thoughtfully present in the moment. It's also what you think of when you're trying to get into spiritual for mation practices. You know you're trying to be present in your body and share the moment with God and others.
Dr. Jim Wilder:You just stopped just short of that goal, and all of us have. You know we can get stopped anywhere along the way. I mean you can get stopped. Your brain didn't wake up, could stop because you got a little overheated emotionally. It can stop because you get a little too calculating. But now we want to get all the way to the front and say I'm going to share life with others, and so the best win is something that will happen, that will share together, and this shared life experience with God and others is actually how you live to escape enemy mode.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah, that's so interesting because I can't even count the number of people that I have coached who have said something similar to I just don't feel like I'm really in my life, like I'm living my life, I'm doing my life, I'm engaging with the people in my life, but I don't feel like I'm fully connected to it, and so that feels very much like what you're saying about living an inch behind your face of just I'm going through the motions, I'm sort of doing this ideal self out into the world thing, but there is a part of me that knows that I'm not entirely invested in this.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yes, that's. The dorsal medial prefrontal cortex is where the activity stopped, instead of getting all the way to our identity in the ventral medial Prefrontal cortex. It's close, but no cigar.
Cyd Holsclaw:So does that then connect with, like polyvagal theory, with the dorsal state and the ventral state of the parasympathetic? And we don't have to spend a lot of time there because maybe people aren't interested in that, but I just wanted to ask that quickly, you know, because we have those states named, for the ventral is the connected state and the dorsal is the sort of disconnected state of the parasympathetic.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, that's where it would overlap with that theory. Okay, yeah. And then it's a little more complex than any of the explanations allow, but yes.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah, yeah, I know that you know those of us that don't have the understanding and expertise. You know we're forced to simplify. Well, very often you can figure out the solution without realizing, knowing exactly where it's coming from Every once in a while something is counterintuitive.
Dr. Jim Wilder:But you know these things. Yeah, they're all attempts to try to make sense of this extremely complex organ we call the brain.
Cyd Holsclaw:So I have another question that I'm wondering if you're willing to entertain, and that is this idea of like sort of the internal critic or the voices that we have, that sort of speak to us within our own heads, and there can often be voices that sound very much like enemies. And so what's your, what's your sort of understanding of what's going on in the brain with that, if you have an explanation?
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, all right, so let's, let's move through the brain again. So you've got the, the signal coming up here to the cingulate cortex, which is our mutual mind state. We use it for mutual mind with others, we use it to read other people's faces, and it's how I understand that there is a mind behind your face that's talking to me and it's sort of like here's how that, what that mind is thinking. All right, so that's looking out right. So you come up a little bit farther here to the dorsal, medial, prefrontal cortex, and that one is the this as if self, but it actually is trying to figure out how are you seeing me? So now I've figured out, I see what's going on in your mind, what are you think or what are you seeing inside of me?
Dr. Jim Wilder:All right, and so this is the flip side of that image. But then if we move from here, which is right up near the top, all the way to the side, to the dorsal lateral, there's a part of the brain that's usually associated with your attachment to your father. If the dorsal, if the cingulate cortex is more connected to your mother typically, and it sees this, how my mother sees me is up here, then how my father sees me is out here and that becomes a voice that comments on you and your relationship and stuff like that. It's also the part of your brain that would function as a conscience, which is the word. Conscience means to think together with.
Cyd Holsclaw:Okay.
Dr. Jim Wilder:So here's what other people are thinking about me and my relationships and my identity, and that voice will internalize any important messages, favorable or critical, and it will comment to you. So right out here, you know it's saying here's what I think about you and what you're doing right now, and you know this doesn't reflect well on us or however you. You know, whatever you've learned as that point of view, but it's still short of well. Who am I? But it also contains in those commentaries the things that have come to value. But if they're fear-based, I value avoiding and you're thinking this, but it doesn't tell me who I really am. If it's attachment-based, I go, I value becoming this kind of person. So you know, on the fear side, I'm afraid you're not gonna like me. On the positive side is I don't think I'm being my best self right now. I think this could be improved on, you know, and so the commentary could work either direction. For us, that's where you were going. But what? What do you wanna do with that information?
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah, well, first of all, I find it fascinating that different parts of our brain sort of internalize what my mother thinks of me and what my father thinks of me. I hadn't heard that before. So that's fascinating in the first place. And then in the second place, I guess I'm I'm just sort of interpreting through my own experience about how that internal critic has changed its tone and become less fear-based and more loving-based.
Cyd Holsclaw:As I have practiced manual journaling, which is, you know, for people who aren't familiar with it, it's, it's receiving attunement from God, allowing, allowing yourself to receive that. God sees me, god hears me, god understands, is glad to be with me and is for me like doing something about it. And as I've practiced that, my voice, that internal voice, changes, has changed its tone. It no longer yells at me. It now, you know, has compassion and is kind to me, and so can you speak a little bit about, you know, doing something like that or sort of. I mean, that's attachment repair, right In some way. Is that? Is that in that sort of father part of the brain, or is it? Yeah?
Dr. Jim Wilder:What's going on? God identifies himself as a father. Yeah, and in one sense you could say spiritually. The point of all human attachments is to help our brain learn what attachments with a greater mind is like and what that greater mind thinks of us. Now, if you start with fear, you're only going to get critical remarks. This is what the greater mind won't like about me.
Dr. Jim Wilder:But suppose God actually was, didn't think of himself as a total failure when it comes to human beings, that he actually had an identity in mind. That was a better identity for us, and he's trying to help us find that better identity. Then, if we formed an attachment with God and he liked us, you know, the interesting thing about the brain is it's always trying to discover who I really am, and starting from infancy, we don't know. And so one of the comments that Jesus made is you have to enter the kingdom of God like a small child. I think that means that you have to enter the kingdom of God not knowing who you really are and being willing to learn. And so if you're starting to learn and then God says well, you know, I don't think that was your best self there, that's not the one I had in mind. Those aren't the good works I prepared ahead of time for you to enjoy. So let's have a redo here, right, let's find out your real self, cause I think you can be more caring than that. I think you'd be more present than that, I think you can be more in your expressive than that. I think you can be more curious than that. And it's sort of interesting that when James talks about the first signs of being saved, he says you're going to be much more eager to hear, much slower to get anger, angry, and you're going to be engaged with other people. That's a sign that you're becoming this new person and what comes out of your mouth is going to start to match what's going on inside as this new person develops.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Unfortunately, we've had a Christianity that's primarily like we got to get rid of your old self, which is true enough, but there's no new self to replace it. So if you're not growing a new self, all you can do is try to whack a mole on the old self and something else can pop up. So this is again this attachment with God. But you have to figure he likes you or you can't hear that. So how do you experience that? And that's the manual process is like learning to experience that, even when I'm upset, god still wants to be with me, right, in fact? I think of it sort of like this does a cardiologist want to be with you when you're having a heart attack? And the answer is yes. That's when he knows he's most needed. And God's sort of like a cardiologist for our identities, you know, like when you're forgetting it, that's when you need me there, so that's when I want to show up.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah.
Geoff Holsclaw:Well, the last little bit of time.
Cyd Holsclaw:What do we have to be done?
Geoff Holsclaw:Well, we don't have to be done, but I just want to continue on this conversation. I'm going to have the two of you, maybe do most of it, but like how to build attachment in order to be competent and skilled at escaping enemy mode. Throughout the book a couple of times you said teaching morality or teaching right and wrong doesn't actually help people get out of enemy mode, and for certain people it can make it worse, because now they just have moral justifications for the bad behavior. They can talk ethically while acting unethically.
Geoff Holsclaw:And that's kind of that like information will solve all of our problems, right? But it's the attachments, and so you've already kind of mentioned, sid, like Immanuel, prayer journaling or something like that. So I'm going to hand it over to the two of you, but if you can kind of just talk more about how do we grow and shape those attachment relationships as we kind of finish off, Well, the thing I'll start with is that you have to have your relational circuit on, because attachment has to be active at all levels.
Dr. Jim Wilder:You see, if it's at the back, that's not active. You get simple at enemy mode. If it's the middle, that's not working actually, because it's too active. You get stupid at any mode. If you get almost all the way to the front, you get intelligent enemy book. So the whole thing has to be running correctly and you have to be present in your body and sort of glad to be here.
Dr. Jim Wilder:So the thing that we found activates that best is an appreciation memory. It's a thankful memory, it's something, especially if it's a relationally thankful. It's like I can remember a time when God was really touching me. And if I can start with that and spend time there, my brain starts to realize, oh, I think God actually likes to be with me and I like to be with God. And that sort of time which we say is the beginning of an interaction. Then lets you ask God well, how do you see this or how do you think of that? That's something I call the eyes of heaven, like, okay, well, I know how I see it and God understands how I see it. That's where we start right. Like, I know how I see it. God understands how I see it. Am I curious about how he sees it? And then some people actually get pictures. Some people hear words. Most of them are what we call no see. No hear people the thought goes through their mind. But when you notice, that thought makes you feel peaceful, it sort of reinterprets the picture from a different perspective and suddenly things make sense that they didn't, in a way, they didn't before and that's sort of. Those are the steps that we go into the Emanuel process. Like let's just get relational, let's get present in our body, let's ask God what do you think about something? And then notice what comes into our mind, the shifts our perspective towards health, towards.
Dr. Jim Wilder:When I say peaceful, people often think it's non-emotional. That's not the case with peaceful. Peaceful doesn't mean I'm not feeling anything, it just means it feels right. So, like I'll give you a real short example, because my wife died about two years ago and you know, sometimes I feel like I really miss her and when that happens I don't say to myself, what's wrong with me, that I'm feeling sad and missing her. I think, wow, that's a sign that we had a decent enough relationship that two years later, I still feel like, oh, it'd be nice to have her around, I'd like to have her here. And it feels right To be sad and to have that feeling. So it's peaceful, but it isn't because the emotions are all drained out of it. It's peaceful because it just fits the kind of person I am.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah, and it also makes me think too of like spiritual formation, language, like Ignatius talked about, discerning consolation and desolation. And consolation is that peaceful sense of nearness with God, no matter what the emotion or situation might be, and that sounds like what you're describing and the Immanuel process. I'm just asking you like it feels like the biggest part of that is knowing you're not alone. In that the enemy mode feels like it's putting me by myself, isolated over here and the rest of the world somewhere else, but I'm alone. And so that Immanuel process is actually I'm not alone, I'm never alone, like God is always with me and I don't ever have to feel like I'm all by myself and isolated.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, that is the first and major step is that I'm not alone. But the thing that the Immanuel process happens, that adds to that, is actually what I call a rescue attachment. So the brain has what's called a coir value, and that is you and I have never talked before.
Cyd Holsclaw:Right.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Right, but I've talked with Jeff before and when he said this is my wife said you acquired value in my mind immediately although I'd never met you before, as though we had had a relationship because you meant something to someone I'd already met.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Okay, and so you know, if you've got children and one of them goes to college and comes home with a boyfriend or girlfriend or something like that, this stranger will suddenly acquire value to you because it matters to this person. Right, yeah, so I've worked connected with God, and God looks at somebody who I'm upset with and he said yes, Z are upset with that, but that person has value to me. I'm actually going to accompany that person through their life. My brain immediately acquires value for that person. So, God, my attachment to God becomes a rescue attachment to the person that I'm having enemy mode with, and so it's a way of telling our brain I can share someone else's perspective on that person when my own feels like what. They're not on my side, and God says yes, but I'm actually on both of your sides. So that is the way in which we work our way around that but without sharing a mind with God.
Dr. Jim Wilder:First, it tells us we're not alone, so we can be relational. Secondly, it says there's another perspective on people that I haven't I'm not seeing right now from someone I value that can help me out of this.
Dr. Jim Wilder:And we can actually do that with each other as well. I don't know if you and Jeff do this with your kids, but every once in a while my kids would run me into enemy mode and so if I was gonna talk to my wife about it, she would help me out of enemy mode with the kids. She said, yeah, that's what, we're gonna see this. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. I heard the other way around too yeah. It's built into the mechanism to help us get out of enemy mode.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah, absolutely. And I know I've experienced that in asking those questions that you said of like God. What do you think of this scenario? You understand how I feel and think about this. What do you think? And I've experienced exactly that, I didn't know it was called rescue attachment, but that idea that God actually is doing something with this person, that I'm feeling against. And that shifts my posture toward that person, knowing that God is doing something with that person, just like he's doing something with me.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, yeah, and it lets us be a little merciful, because I know I'm not being my best self all the time. So suppose, instead of taking offense at you, I am actually going to help. What God's about, and that is to help you find and grow your best self Right, and just the times when I don't like you is exactly the times when one of us is going to have to be working on our better self. And I just make one other comment when the brain is in enemy mode, it cannot tell if other people are in enemy mode or not. It simply assumes everybody else is. So if everybody around you looks like an enemy, it's your brain that's in enemy mode. And all of a sudden we've got to go to.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Well, who do I trust more than my own brain? And most of us, when we're in enemy mode, will not trust other people. But if we have a connection with God, we actually have a greater mind than our own that we can trust and say well, you know, it's not all the way. You see, you know those people could be upset, they could have a problem, they might not be on your side, but suppose we went for a higher goal than that. Let's help them become who I meant them to be. Would you like that? And in fact, almost everybody that upsets me, I think everybody that upsets me when they're upsetting me. I really would like it if they were a better self.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yes, very true, and I would like it if I was a better self interpreting what's happening right now.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, it's motivating, it's building the system.
Cyd Holsclaw:But all of this is predicated on having an understanding of God that is kind and merciful and actually wants you to become a better self, rather than a God who's constantly disappointed and angry and upset with you. So, that's the first piece of it is right being able to understand that God is not my enemy and I am not an enemy of God.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, the word understanding is little misleading in that context and that is an we really need an experience of that. Being that way, it helps to start with an understanding because we can go look for the experience. But just knowing that that's true without experiencing it means we don't have the actual attachment.
Cyd Holsclaw:Right yeah.
Dr. Jim Wilder:And I think that's what God means by love. He means an attachment with me, so that you know me, yeah, and you go like well, but I know him, I just know he likes me. And that's the thing about the Ignatian exercises they're almost the opposite of the Immanuel prayer. The Immanuel prayer is inviting God into our life and the Ignatian exercise invite us into the life of God and we really need to go both ways.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah.
Dr. Jim Wilder:So that we understand God's perspective. We also know that he shares an understanding of our perspective. But the real liberating one is entering into God's perspective. When we're living from that perspective, all kinds of identity and possibilities exist that would never exist just from my point of view.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yes, and I love that you mentioned that, because that makes me think of what you said earlier about how, when we come into the kingdom, we come like children. We need to find out who we are, and the only person who can really tell us who we are is when we're invited into that life of God and God's able to tell us who we are. So I really appreciate that. You said that going both ways and Jeff's gonna tell us we're out of time, aren't you? You've, oh, you're muted, we can't hear you.
Dr. Jim Wilder:We can't, so we're not out of time.
Geoff Holsclaw:So we're gonna be talking. Ah, there we go. Okay, see, I'm not producing the show, as well as.
Cyd Holsclaw:I have like 17 more questions.
Geoff Holsclaw:Jeff. Well, yeah, I'm sure. Well, I was thinking while you were just talking about this, as I do have brewing in my mind a desire to do like extended episodes on attachment, and so maybe we could have you on again, Jim, to kind of talk about that, because it's a huge topic. But what you just said, I thought that was so interesting. So thank you so much for that Cause I'm actually in the midst of the 19th annotation of the spiritual exercises myself and I direct the spiritual exercises.
Cyd Holsclaw:I love them so.
Geoff Holsclaw:But that idea that the Emmanuel prayer in one sense is receiving God's attunement to us. You didn't use the attunement language, but that's how it's usually thought of, right? So it's God understanding that God's in my life. But then what you said is that the Ignatian practices is, in a sense, like helping my life be attuned to God's life or helping my life be in God's life. I love yeah, I just love the way you said that. So that could be. Sid and I are gonna do a whole nother podcast episode just on that idea.
Dr. Jim Wilder:We're gonna talk about it cause that I don't have, we'll have you on.
Geoff Holsclaw:But that's so helpful, thank you.
Cyd Holsclaw:So I guess, if you're gonna make us end, I just wanna say one thing, Jeff.
Geoff Holsclaw:Okay.
Cyd Holsclaw:So first of all, I just really, if you're gonna read the book, if anybody's reading the book, which I think it's a great book, I hope people do read it. I think your chapter eight is a pivotal chapter. Yes, the chapter on admitting enemy mode, because if we can't, like we can, understand what enemy mode is, we can recognize enemy mode, but then admitting enemy mode feels like that is like the crux of the work to be done.
Dr. Jim Wilder:And I love you know it's the next day.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah, yeah, and I love all of your text boxes in that chapter and you know, two of them just really leaped out at me as I mean, I love the work that I do as a coach and a spiritual director, but you gave me a new category for why it's so important in that chapter, in just sort of naming. You know, anytime I feel my individual or group identities are being distorted or misrepresented, it will be hard to admit enemy mode. It will be easiest to admit my enemy mode is someone who encourages my best identity and then, right before that you had said someone who has a strong and fearless attachment to me. And I just, you know, I just wanted to like, I just love that you said that because it makes me so grateful for the privilege and the opportunity to sort of be a strong and fearless person, fiercely for the best identity of the people that are choosing to trust me in that kind of work, and I just really value that you encourage people to enter into coaching because of that.
Cyd Holsclaw:That's there, right, that absolute advocate for you. So I just really love that. You said you know that this is an important thing. It might not always be the people you're living with that can help you do this work that you're gonna need to do, the work with the people you're living with. But sometimes you know there's enough implicit memory and enough baggage built up that maybe having someone who can really fiercely fight for and advocate for your best identity can then help you bring that into the relationships with the people that you live with.
Dr. Jim Wilder:I believe that. I know that's making rapid progress as being coached by somebody. So yeah, that's the evidence from the field.
Cyd Holsclaw:Yeah, yeah. Well, that is great. I just that felt so deeply affirming of the vocation that God has called me into. So I just felt really grateful for that affirmation.
Geoff Holsclaw:So thank you, you go for it Sid. So the book. For everyone who is listening and watching the book is Escaping Enemy Mode, how Our Brains Unite and Divide Us. Jim, where else can people find you, keep up with you and get to know the work that you're doing at LifeBottle?
Dr. Jim Wilder:Well, you can go to escapingenemymodecom and download a free 40-page study guide if you want for that. That also would link you into lifemodelworksorg, which is our website, which has all the current information. To the extent that a website can do that, I don't know if you've got one, but they're sort of a constant frustration during keep them running right. There you go, anyway. Then we've got a whole bunch of people like yourselves who are talking about this as well. So come in, find out about the community, find people who are looking for a relational, attachment-based Christianity that helps us grow a person more like God intended, and I think you'll like the company.
Geoff Holsclaw:Amen, well, I'll put the links to all those things in the show notes. So if you're watching this on YouTube, check the description. Otherwise, the show notes for all the podcasts. If you're a listener, if you're watching this and you are interested in coaching, in the show notes there are also links to connect with Sid, pursue that, or spiritual direction, things like that. And, as always, please like and subscribe to the show for everyone, and there's also a way to sign up so you can get this in your inbox. So thank you again, jim. Sid, thank you for joining the show.
Cyd Holsclaw:It's such a pleasure, Jim. I hope we get to do it again sometime.
Dr. Jim Wilder:Yeah, you know my number.
Geoff Holsclaw:That's right. Thanks for being available to us. Thanks for being Everyone. We will talk soon.