Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

068: Exploring Low Anthropology and its Impact on the Human Condition, with David Zahl (Summer Rewind)

• Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw • Season 4 • Episode 68

Share episode

(During our Summer Break we are airing important past episodes)

We spend our days feeling like we’re the only one with problems, when everyone else has their act together.  We feel like other are achieving so much, but we aren’t living up to our potential.

What if the answer wasn’t a higher self-esteem, but a lower anthropology? What if instead of expecting more from others (and ourselves) we actually expected less?

Host Geoff Holsclaw (PhD) talks with David Zahl about how a high anthropology—thinking optimistically about human nature—can breed perfectionism, anxiety, burnout, loneliness, and resentment. To counteract this Zahl invites us to consider a biblically rooted and surprisingly life-giving low anthropology, which fosters hope, deep connection, and even happiness.

Check out his new book, Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself).

Check out the DMIN in Spiritual Formation and Relational Neuroscience here. 

Stay Connected:

  • NEED spiritual direction or coaching that aligns with this podcast? Connect with Cyd Holsclaw here.
  • Join the Embodied Faith community to stay connected and get posts, episodes, & resources.
  • Support the podcast with a one-time or regular gift (to keep this ad-free without breaking the Holsclaw's bank).
Geoff Holsclaw:

Welcome again to the embodied faith podcast. I am Geoff Holsclaw and we're seeking to integrate neuroscience, spiritual formation and faith. As always, this is brought to you by grassroots Christianity, which is growing faith for everyday people. Many of us spend our days feeling like we have all the problems and everyone else has their act together. We feel like we aren't achieving what we're supposed to, we're not living up to our potential. But what if a higher self-esteem is not the answer? What if maybe that's the problem? What if a lower anthropology could save the day? That's what we're talking about today how a low anthropology might actually be better for us. I'm really excited to have David Zahl on today on the Embodied Faith podcast. He is the founder and director of mockingbird ministries, the co-host of the mockingcast. He is also the author of secularity, subtitled how career parenting, technology, food, politics and romance become our new religion and what to do about it. Uh, and thankfully, his next book, which we're talking about today, low anthropology, has a much shorter subtitle. But, david, thank you so much for coming on today.

David Zahl:

I'm so glad to be here, jeff. It's great to hear your voice and rattling off that Excessively long subtitle. You did a great job with it.

Geoff Holsclaw:

I'm sure that was your publisher's idea. You had nothing to do with it.

David Zahl:

It actually was. I was like. They're like, if you're gonna use a neologism to title this book, we've got to tell people that's true, that's true?

Geoff Holsclaw:

Well, good, okay so. So let's cut to the chase. I was raised in california. I was raised in california in the 80s and 90s when the self-esteem movement was just at peak Self-esteem they were the best at self-esteem. I Didn't learn much in school. I don't know how to spell, but I feel really good about that and I'm very confident when I misspell things. And so, reading your book, you seem to want to take that all away from me and I want to know why. Why do you want to take my high self-esteem away from me and Catapult me in the despairs of a low anthropology?

David Zahl:

Well, first of all, I don't I want you to feel great about yourself, uh, because I you know the book is, is not um, it's not a vehicle for self-loathing. I really think the opposite is true. But the Uh, there was an article, okay uh, about I don't know, maybe eight or nine years ago. That was in the atlantic monthly. It was a huge article. It actually got turned into a book, or something of a book, called how to land your kid in therapy. It was lori Gottlieb wrote it and it was about, uh, she said that she saw she had seen a generation, a generation of young people enter her office with um Board of basically having had a nervous breakdown in the mid 20s because they had been had been so sheltered from any experience of failure or any experience of their own lack, and they'd been told so aggressively that they were, uh, you know, super special and there was nothing wrong with them and they only limitations they had were the ones they put on themselves and parents had, out of love, I think, tried to spin every setback as an actual victory and they're they'd never been allowed to experience any negativity, in other words, and she said that what she saw in these people was that they felt that they'd I have been lied to, but mainly they felt that they were, uh, they were struggling with a acute a perfectionism and, uh, the, the fallout of that was sort of a sense of existential loneliness. They were the only ones who who were screwed up. All of their peers had it together. Uh, if anyone found out how much they were really just stitching it together, they would be. They lived in fear of that. That's sort of imposter syndrome, and so, uh, I found that to be true of my own peers.

David Zahl:

I, I grew up in the same setting of what, uh, you know, under the rubric of high self-esteem, what was Very often communicated. And I want to say that All of this, that sort of approach, was done out of, I feel, is done out of a love, and who wants their kid to feel Badly about herself? Of course, but it, it had a way of creating a neurosis Around, uh or what, what today is basically called entitlement, like that. I think that I am, I am deserving of everything good and that there is I'm God's gift to the world, uh, and well, while also a splitting, because you're leading another life, which there's the real you and then there's the public, you and and all sorts of things. So that woke me up. That article woke me up to realizing oh my gosh, this isn't some niche thing that I, that I'm dealing with in terms of like privileged kids on the east coast, but it's more of a a larger fallout from that kind of sunny optimism, or at least almost a militaristic defense against uh anything sad, uh bad or mad.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Which are like the three of the five core uh, emotions. Well, just so that you don't feel too sad, mad or bad, I just want you to know that right away. You know, josh read or jumped in and said that he loves you, so, so if that positivity could just carry through to the rest of this interview, that would be great. I think I remember reading that same article, which was something like there's no greater burden than the burden of um A, finding your happiness, where parents would tell Children about career choices and college choices and romantic, like just do what makes you happy, which is sounds so positive and affirming right, you want your children to be happy, but it's, it's vague and it feels like a crushing weight. Well, am I happy? Am I doing what makes me happy is? Well, if I made a change, would that make me more happy or less? And then just becomes this huge uh, because the idea is that you should be happy. If you're not happy, then something is wrong. I don't know if that's the same article. I think it was your fault.

Geoff Holsclaw:

You are to blame, yeah yeah, and so that is, that becomes the accidental secondary message of what you're calling a high anthropology. So could you just unpacked a little bit what you mean by a high anthropology?

David Zahl:

Yeah, sure, the uh anthropology I'm not using it like a cultural anthropologist would um or a Is someone's shopping for? You know boho chic Housewares? Uh, it's not about. Uh, you know the study of small, you know um tribes in the tundra or something like that. I'm talking about anthropology is the way philosophers and theologians use it, which is simply what do you mean? What's your operating view of human nature? What do you mean when you use the phrase I'm only human? That is your anthropology. What do you think human beings are good at? What are they not good at? What are they capable of? What are they incapable of?

David Zahl:

So a high anthropology is basically the default in at least the culture in which I was raised. I can't speak for everyone, because I've recognized especially people from religious backgrounds grow up in a much more negative view or a kind of a wagging finger. But the high anthropology would say that, yes, the only limits that you face are the ones that you put on yourself, that you are defined by your greatest achievements, that you can sort of do it all and be it all, and a lot of times these messages aren't overt, but that is the implicit message that you are capable of a great deal. Now, one of the ways you know you're living in a culture of high anthropology is and in fact this book was born out of this observation and in fact, my own suffering. I mean, we're all sort of high anthropologists by nature, I think, but it was the combination of burnout which is this.

David Zahl:

At this point it's almost like a hackneyed idea, but everyone, for at least a few years there, before the pandemic and during the pandemic, everyone was talking about burnout. Today it's more like fatigue, but this widespread sense that we were living lives that demanded more of us than we were capable of delivering and that had to do with our economically, our jobs, it had to do with our relationships, had to do with simply our time, and it's spiritually too, I think there's. So you'd hear about middle schoolers being burned out and you would hear about young mothers being burned out and you would hear about men in their 50s being burned out, and everyone was sort of burned out, and it was not just they were exhausted, they were sort of paralyzed or put upon feeling sort of betrayed, almost that they were told that they could do something they were physically incapable of doing. So burnout is one of the cultural conditions that I was addressing, and the other one would be loneliness, which is often generated by this never allowing yourself to be known. That's what people were lonely, there's an intolerance of weakness.

David Zahl:

And so you saw these books that would come out, lots of books about the power of vulnerability, and I'm talking about Brené Brown, but other people would piggyback on this and I generally think those are really pretty good. It's a good development. But there was a sort of a cry of the heart that I'm under so much demand of the burden of perfectionism is too much, and in order to forge real relationships, in order to feel known, we must be open, not about the best things about us, but what we struggle with, what we fail at and what we are. You know where we fall short and that's where known, what's where you feel known and that's where you feel loved. So loneliness, burnout, are symptomatic of a high anthropology that says show no weakness and keep grinding and no rest for the weary.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Yeah, so the way you're using it a high anthropology sounds like some combination of like pipe pop psychology and affirmation, self-help literature, corporate productivity, culture and effectiveness, and then kind of the sense that, well, your life is up to you and how it turns out is your responsibility, which really does come from certain streams of like positive psychology and other things, like you are the captain of your own life, right, and so that sounds good on the one hand, but you're kind of noticing and where, as a culture, is saying, well, actually, look at all these symptoms that a lifetime of that message creates, where we're pushing our physical limitations, we're expecting so much of ourselves and others and these types of things.

Geoff Holsclaw:

So what are? So? Because I come from like fundamentalism and I'm in conversations with people coming out of fundamentalism and you know they would say, well, I had a low anthropology and it was receiving a more positive view of myself that actually saved and helped me move out of that, which I think in certain circles is true. And if you were raised in a really traumatic or abusive environment, that is terrible. And it is true that building your self-esteem or having a higher view of yourself is the work of self-care and of development. But broadly, I think what I hear you saying broadly, as a culture we're built to have a high anthropology like that's, like the marketing, the corporate, that's the messages we're getting all the time right.

David Zahl:

Yeah, that's. I mean, this is one of the tensions in the book and I try to talk about it in a lot of different ways, but there is very much a way in which low anthropology, which is sort of the sense that you are a limited creature, you're not, there's God and you're not God, and that you're limited and that you're conflicted, you have our tied in all sorts of knots and you're an emotional creature. This is all founded on social science. You don't need a theology degree to know this and that there is a dark side to human nature. There is what I would I would it would call original sin. In this case, I would call it self-centeredness. But if you don't have some appreciation of there being an actual dark, of my child occasionally just wanting to inflict pain, you're gonna be baffled and disappointed and actually resentful of people.

David Zahl:

So, that said, there are those who grew up in a what I would call a not low enough anthropology that said you are terrible, now stop it. You are awful and you are a worm, and now stop it. So it's a. So it's. It's a. As a Christian, you somehow have the power within yourself to not be so limited, to not be so self-centered and to not be so conflicted and that create that pits a person against themselves and creates enormous amounts of shame and self-loathing. But the one of the key lines in the beginning of the book is it is not Shame inducing and defeating to say that I cannot do it all, be it all, care about it all and and always do exactly what I'm told. What is shame inducing and defeating is the idea that I can. I just haven't pulled it off yet.

Geoff Holsclaw:

And I think that was the. That's the great twist. That I think is really important is that certainly you and I we were engaged in pastoral ministry as well, as you know, it's theology and academic and psychology and all these things, like we don't want people to be filled with shame and we don't want people to be self-loathing, so that's we'll disagree with that baseline. But what you're trying to say is well, the best psychology and maybe even you know theology Knows that we have a low Anthropology or knows that we're, you know, we're just people and that actually it's a high anthropology that is most shame inducing and that it's high, it's a high expectation kind of environment that we creates the most self-loathing, even In general. And so and I think that that's really that's something we need as a society To grapple with as we, as we kind of think through through these things. So what is the shape of a low?

Geoff Holsclaw:

You, in section two or part two of your book, you talk about the shape of low anthropology. So what is the shape you just mentioned? Rather love a couple of those three things, but what? Why? Is accepting limitations good for us? And an example of a low anthropology?

David Zahl:

Yeah, oh, and, by the way, if people who did grow up in that fundamentalist sort of Absolute know that that kind of condemnatory situation, I do think it can be very therapeutic and helpful to be reminded that they're creating God's image and that they're, they have Something positive to contribute, and like that is earth shattering to people who who have some I got in their head that they don't. It's, it's, it's more I'm talking. There's some slight cultural specificity here, where I'm talking about those of us who think I'm the only one with problems, I'm the only one who struggles like that's what a high anthropology in Colquates and people, the shape of a low Anthropology. So people sometimes say or is this just a euphemism for total depravity or original sin, and that's right.

David Zahl:

It includes a notion of sin, total depravity, I think, by the way, logistically is completely degraded. I don't think you can. It makes no sense, like in terms of it only comes across as you suck, like that's. That's that. I've stopped trying to and I'm not a Calvinist, so I don't feel any any kind of a Ownership of that title. It has done a ton of damage.

David Zahl:

So a low anthropology has three pillars, as I see it. The first one is limitation, which is this idea that we have. We are limited by what we can do and by what we can know. So we are limited by things like time you cannot be in two places at once, as anyone who's got kids knows and we are limited by biology, like we've got bodies that need sleep. You know that need food.

David Zahl:

There's a simple sense in which there are firm limits on what we are capable of, but there's also Epistemological modesty. What I, or what I would say, like the that we're high anthropology world is the world of certainty and I have complete mastery and comprehensive knowledge of x, y and z. Low anthropology is actually that that you cannot have full, comprehensive knowledge of anything like that. Just by nature of your limit, your context and your perspective. There's always something you may have ninety, nine, point nine percent of the facts, but you, there's, there's always the possibility that you don't have all of them. And again, there is a God and it's not you. So there's a modesty about what we can do. That's, that's limitation, and I think that I mean. What does that look like in practice? It means I can, I can, I think sometimes. It means the difference between taking up arms and not, not, not the violence and no violence. If I'm a hundred percent certain I'm right about something and I'm a hundred percent certain you're wrong about something, well, then what excuse is there for me not to employ every means at my disposal to prevent you? A low anthropology says there might still be something I can learn from you, even if I, even if I, even if I don't think so, I have to know Epistemologically or that, that that I am going to be limited in what I'm doesn't mean I can't feel strongly or almost certain about things, but could cut one, one percent out of my certainty off would would not be a bad thing. Limitation is simply the idea that I, it's, it's okay to be a person with limits like that's that me needing sleep or getting sick occasionally is not evidence of some sort of exceptional weakness on my part. It's just sort of proof that I'm a human being.

David Zahl:

So that is the first pillar. The second pillar is what I call doubleness, and this is the that Our lives. We, we're not just limited in terms of capacity but agency. So it's the Roman seven, or the inside out experience of reality that anyone who struggled with addiction knows all too well. The people are emotional creatures and we're not we were. We are intellectual creatures as well, but that's secondary if, which means we're a jumble of feelings and there's competing forces that are at work within as such that we don't always understand ourselves. We are a mystery to ourselves, and that's telling. There's Misbehavior is not always a Matter of information or education.

David Zahl:

That misbehavior is usually a matter. It has to do with desire, and this is an Augustinian attempted At the what, if you want to know, if you want to understand someone, figure out what they love, figure out what they want, and that's, that's the key to understanding people. But it means in practice that we can be very Complicated, and it doesn't mean that we always want to do the wrong thing, though yes, it does mean that and it also it does. It means I'm not as free as I think I am, that I'm constrained. I mean, if you're if you're sort of a social progressive, you can think about it in terms of constrained by Society and my circumstances and biases and all of these things, but there's some sort of I'm not just a free agent making healthy choices, and I think that's a absolute key to understanding other people and not completely batting your head against the wall. When you told them, as a person in ministry, like I've told them what they need to do, I've spelled it out clearly. Why won't they do it?

Geoff Holsclaw:

Because that always works, because that always works.

David Zahl:

It doesn't work. So that's a doubleness or conflictedness. And thirdly is self-centeredness, which is a sin it was my euphemism for that. There is something about us that such that the things that we do desire often come at a cost to other people and even ourselves, and that our best interests are not always that somehow our desires are disordered. And there is a moral component to this which is unavoidable and I guess it's unfashionable. And it's where a lot of the books about vulnerability and limitations stop. But until I don't think you're capable of loving or understanding other people, unless we assume, unless we understand that there is also this, what I would call bias against flourishing, that seems to afflict us. Even those of us who've been set free from the weaponized versions of low anthropology, we still sometimes just want to do something because we want to do it, and to hell with what other people think. So that's, we see that playing out collectively in all sorts of ways.

Geoff Holsclaw:

My siblings were always like when Jeffrey was, when he was six, he would get that look and we just knew he was about to destroy all the stuff we'd spend in our building. Exactly. It's like I don't know, why did I do that? I don't know. I don't know the demons inside of me was I giving into some primal urges? I don't know. Why did the perverse yeah, yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Well, so you just explained a lot of the reasons why this podcast is called embodied faith is because our bodies create limitations. So you were talking about there's food limitations, there's sleep limitations, there's just extended in space and time limitations. I can't jump really high, so I have basketball limitations. I can't just wish those away. So our culture, technologically speaking, and our corporate and marketing consumption world basically is live without limitations. You have light bulbs, you have music, you can stay up all night, you don't have to sleep, just keep going. We have all sorts of remedies, I have coffee, we can do all this, we can make it all happen. So our Western world, especially technological world, says you can live without limitations and you're saying well, actually that's a high anthropology kind of view. A low anthropology says we need to accept our limitations and then, similarly, we're embodied. So we have these churning emotional life. That is just undeniable.

Geoff Holsclaw:

I think that's what you're saying is partly why I think, at least in my circles like internal family systems, parts theory is just taking off therapeutically as well as kind of popularly is because people are grappling with like yeah, I have conflicted motivations, I have different parts of me. I want to go out no, I want to stay home. I want to chew my boss's head off no, I'd rather not, because I want my promotion. We have different parts that are at war and I think a low anthropology is always taking that seriously. Like you're not. You know, the goal isn't to live your best self now, best life now, it's just to kind of live. You know, let's just live and let's be honest, you know.

Geoff Holsclaw:

So, anyhow, I think that you're just kind of explaining, I'm just kind of linking you know what you're doing with the title of this podcast. So how, how then, just to kind of start wrapping up. So is there any good news in all this? Like, how do we? How do we move forward? Like, how is this good for us? You mentioned living with yourself, relationships, religion and politics. You don't have to go over all that, like we could maybe just like end with the last one, like what's, how does a low anthropology help our relationship to our own selves? And then maybe like our relationships.

David Zahl:

Well, I think a low anthropology approaches the self with a little, with a healthy self suspicion, not a self condemnation, but it's sort of a I can. I can contain multitudes, and it's it's this. This very anxious search for the authentic self can take on, at least in my own experience, and the lives of other people can take on a very oppressive color. And a low anthropology sort of says you're not just strictly one thing or the other and like that's okay and you are wonderful in a lot of ways and in a lot of ways which are complete basket case, and like that's to have any kind of healthy relationship with yourself. Both of those, neither of those, could be sort of legislated against, while also nothing, I think. I think the great fruit of low anthropology is unity. Like I understand that we are not. Perhaps we don't agree on certain virtues, we have different values, but I can know at the I can love you. The second, I realized that, like me, you fall short of your values. Like you don't always live up to them. That's like bridge is is, is is weakness or loss. You know, by the fact that we're both getting older, we both have lost things and there are all of a sudden sympathies like that. So there's a great fruit of love and sympathy and unity, empathy and ultimately though and I'd go through other things curiosity. You know, there's always something more to learn.

David Zahl:

I think faith is the great fruit of low anthropology that I, that I need help of, I need help from other people, so it's invitation to collaboration and friendship and community, but I also need help. Ultimately, I need help from God, such as my predicament that I need help from God, I need deliverance, I need redemption and I need sustenance from from God, and that that I don't think Christianity makes a huge amount of sense with that in the context of a high anthropology, but in the terms of a low anthropology, you get into communities of faith or like. Think of AA, where people who are those are transformative communities and they're other centered, they're serving service communities that begin. With the low anthropology, you do not move beyond your, your sort of basic identity as an alcoholic and like, and yet we watch as people, all sorts of amazing things happen, and we reach out to other people in solidarity and we kind of start to dwell on ourselves a little less, and that's the roadmap to freedom, and but ultimately, I'm trying to paint a picture that I'm trying to make a case for, why faith in God would be Not just compelling but urgent.

David Zahl:

And if you're a person who has the answers, who only needs a slap on the back or a pat on the back occasionally like why, why? Why look to God. But if you're a person who is tied in knots and sometimes does the wrong thing just for the thrill of it and some and and and and, is dealing with inherited biases and conditions that that that Not are not neutral, that, like hurt people socially but also hurt you know the depression that I feel. My wife and kids have to deal with it. I mean you can empathize with me but like who's gonna, you know, go out and get groceries. So it's a.

David Zahl:

I really see this is the gateway, not in of itself, like a low anthropology without some sense of God, I believe can lead to nihilism, not cynicism. Cynicism is sort of a certainty about other people where, as low anthropology says, actually I can never be completely certain about my spouse or my child or myself, but I believe that it ultimately is the beginning. I see a low anthropology produces a high Christology. The great saints of history are sort of you themselves is more dependent and smaller, and God is larger. I found it to be very good news. As I age and many of my own Capabilities capacities just diminished by nature of my body decaying, so sorry, I'm preaching oh no, that's great.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Well, that's what I kind of wanted to end with is how, how does, how, do we cultivate like communities of a low anthropology, not load some shame filled communities, because usually those are ones that are expecting the most, expecting perfectionism, you know, wrapped in the the verbiage of holiness or purity or something like that, or the perfect, you know, charismatic experience or something like that. But how can we, what? What do churches of a low anthropology look like? It seems like they. You know, confession, repentance is pretty basic, right, that's just your declaring out loud your own limitations, failures, your own veering away from the ideals that we hold to be, you know, important for us, and then you know the embrace of that right.

David Zahl:

Yeah, I think a great church service is a great church embraces the technologies of the heart. You know which are. Music is a technology, the heart, storytelling is a technology of the heart, but liturgy and its best. You come into my church at least you hear about God, from whom no secrets are hid, all desires known. You're like, oh, really cool. And then you get to the confession where you talk about the things we've done and left undone and we've not loved our neighbors ourselves. And then, in light of that reality, you are told that God loves you and that you're forgiven on count of his son and you're invited to the table to receive.

David Zahl:

Now, everyone has a different tradition and different liturgies, but I think that basic rhythm is a beautiful one because at the end, after you've received forgiveness, absolution, communion, all on the same level, we're all on our knees. Then you're sent out into the world to do the good works God has prepared in advance for you to do. Sort of like the world becomes a surprise party. You start to look at you, look, start to look at you like wow, given what I'm like, given what other people are like, how amazing is it that so many wonderful things run offer? And here's a place where I can serve another person or here's a place where I look at this acts of beauty and kindness, what it's a difference between approaching the world Resentful for it not living up to your expectations, versus it's grateful and awe and wonder at the majesty of the surprise of God's grace.

Geoff Holsclaw:

And so that sense like a worship service or just a community, like you say, that take, you know, if we want to use the theology, that takes in, you know, seriously, or the sin situation or a low anthropologist, the limitations of humanity. It actually creates more spontaneous moments of awe and wonder and appreciation for the world, for others, whether that's just empathy for others weaknesses, but then also for their achievements. Oh, like that's so amazing where you came from and that you were able to accomplish all these things are, wow, like you're doing so great today. This is a good day for you in just being able to celebrate all these things. It sounds counterintuitive that the lower we view ourselves and others actually creates the more joy and wonder in our interactions.

David Zahl:

Yeah, God's giving people different gifts is giving us very similar weaknesses, but the different gifts, and you can sort of sit around and say, wow, I can't do that. That. Here's my, my, my blind spot. Collaboration becomes all of a sudden like a key to Christian living and you can't do it alone and and yeah, you start to just be in awe of this tapestry that's around you and what, while also not being surprised when things go south or when, when, when there's a glitch or the, the, the processor throws up an error. So I believe it's, it's not, it's a. It's a wonderful way to also not take yourself totally seriously and still think that God is in, the, is in the business of sort of redeeming people and communities and, yeah, all that stuff.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Well, I think it's just striking. In the season two of this, by guess, we did a lot on trauma and I had someone where we just talked about. You know Jesus, you know the man of trauma. You know, from Isaiah 53, usually it's the man of sorrows, right, but the man of trauma. And you know it's unique that you know we as Christians follow the, the week, the vulnerable hero or the, you know the savior who dies, and that, that, you know, is a way of receiving back our own low anthropology. But then you know, the great reversal is well, then we get all of the divinity in the midst of that and that the divinity is the linking of these two things.

David Zahl:

Yeah, I'd say, jeff, I think the Holy Spirit is alive and active and, like, without that peace, you can be thrown onto a sort of a darker view. But I, as a Christian, I just don't do. I always have. There's always hope, and you see that, you see that in you know as much grief as the church gets, and rightly so, if you've ever been a part of a church that really does preach the grace of God over and over and over again. By the way, I think that it's not a one-time thing, it's an every day, every week thing in which people are leading from their weakness and there's transparency and there's forgiveness. I think that's the most beautiful you know glimpse of the kingdom you can receive.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Yeah, absolutely Well. Thanks again so much for pulling some of these things together, pulling together. You know this cultural view as well as you know the best of these psychology, psychological approaches. Please check out David's book Low Anthropology. Where can people find you? Where are you up to? You know on our screens of distraction that you know tatter our ability to embrace our limitations.

David Zahl:

Yeah, jeez, you can find me on Mockingbird, which is embirdcom, and also I host the Mockingcast, which is on Apple and you know Spotify and all the places for podcasts are. I'm doing a book tour right now. I'm going to be in Texas over this sort of Halloween weekend. I'll be back in time for Halloween if you're my children and you're listening, and then I'll be in Minneapolis in middle of November. So all that you can find embirdcom, backslash, low anthropology. You can find out where I'm going to tour the book.

Geoff Holsclaw:

Excellent. Well, thanks so much for all of you who are listening or watching this. You can please like and subscribe. Follow on the YouTube channel, which is my full name, jeffrey Holtsclaw. Otherwise, you can search embodied faith podcast. It'll pop right up, but please follow along. David, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, jeff. Thanks for having me. Yeah, well, let's do this again.

David Zahl:

Love to you.