092 Freedom and Acceptance (Pt. 1)

"Freedom appears very nearly the only value about which people still agree unanimously," says Jacques Philippe in his little book, Interior Freedom. But how does freedom connect to happiness, love, and our life with God and others?
 
These are the questions this little firecracker of a book examines, and that we talk about in this two-part series. 

We look at the difference between "freedom from" and "freedom for", the ideas of locus of control, the constraints of everyday life, and what "inner freedom" might mean, and what it doesn't mean. 

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Transcript

Freedom and Acceptance, Pt. 1

[00:00:14] Geoff: What is freedom and what does it have to do with attachment? What is freedom? How do we find it? How do we know when we have it? And what does it even matter? That's what we're talking about today. We are Cyd and Geoff Holsclaw, and this is the Attaching to God podcast where we are seeking to integrate neuroscience, spiritual formation, and faith.

And as always, we are produced by Embodied Faith, which is seeking to grow faith for every day. People, over to you, Cyd. 

[00:00:42] Cyd: Yeah. So we're going to be talking about freedom today as a way of, uh, well, because it's important and also we're going to end up by the end talking about, uh, one of what has become one of my favorite books. Um, it's small but mighty and it's called interior freedom, um, by Jacques Philippe,

[00:01:00] Geoff: handing, I'm holding up my copy, too, because we both got different copies because we were both

[00:01:06] Cyd: Cause I made Geoff get his own cause I didn't want him to use mine cause I have so much underlined and starred and written in it. So we wanted to talk about freedom today and I thought it would be especially helpful in light of this pending election that's happening in the U S. Um, there's a lot of jargony stuff about freedom being thrown about and which freedoms you stand to lose and which freedoms each candidate wants to protect.

And it just felt like maybe this is a good time to talk about freedom. What is it? Um, what maybe is a Christian understanding of freedom? How can we think of freedom a little differently than maybe we see culturally? Um, so I was just thinking as we came in, you know, these are some of the things that I've heard thrown around in this, you know, debate or, and we're not going to get into the political debate.

at all. Um, but I, you know, you hear about things about freedom of speech and reproductive freedom and sexual freedom and religious freedom. And, you know, it's not used in this language, but freedom to bear arms or freedom to have guns. Um, and it seems like in our cultural understanding of what freedom is, it kind of ends up being equated with rights.

Um, like I have the right to say whatever I want and I have the right to do whatever I want with my own body. And I have the right to sort of live however I want to live, um, which sort of goes along with that sort of you do you kind of thing. Um, and I think we're all very willing to let you do you as long as you doing you doesn't somehow impact my freedom or change my rights or threaten my right to do anything.

Um, and so it seems like it. This idea of freedom that our culture has is, um, ends up, I guess, ends up. Ending in like violence or dominance a lot of the time because it's this freedom that is very self, self focused and I'm free to do whatever I want and I don't really care how it impacts you. Um, and then wanting to stop other, like limit other people's freedom when it does impact me.

So I don't know, Geoff, what are your thoughts

[00:03:07] Geoff: So, like,

[00:03:09] Cyd: standings of

[00:03:10] Geoff: In the name of freedom, I have to keep you from having all your freedoms so that I can have all my freedoms in the way that I understand them. I always think of it as kind of like the mutual, um, decision not to step on each other's toes. I have the right to do anything I want and you have the right to Or the freedom to do anything you want, as long as we're not interfering with our own rights.

Now, of course, uh, what it means to interfere with somebody else's rights then becomes part of the whole debate. And, you know, whether it's rights for guns or reproduction rights or rights for property, blah, blah, blah. So. It's kind of a race to the bottom in one sense. And when you move outCyde the West, um, that sense of freedom is oftentimes just equated with selfishness or a pernicious kind of individualism that you don't care about family.

You don't care about culture. You don't care about your neighborhood. You're only caring about your. Freedom. And the interesting thing that I've, uh, I haven't done a deep dive. I've kind of, uh, come across this a little bit, but they talk now about like choice paralysis and that having too many choices, uh, is actually resulting in our unhappiness, uh, that actually.

Having more freedoms, having to choose to do this or that, or this or that to marry this person or not marry this person to have this job or not have this job to live here or not live here to wear this. So many choices are actually making us less happy because, uh, we're always wondering if we made the right choice.

We have the burden of regret of the choices we didn't make. Uh, and so there's all sorts of there's, yeah, we live in a culture full of choice, but. Is it good for us? 

[00:04:51] Cyd: So are you saying then that the message that Disney has been trying to give us all these years of you can be anything you want to be is maybe not actually even good for us?

[00:05:00] Geoff: Well, one, I think Disney just was parroting all these other people who were saying the same thing, but yeah, in one sense, um, you can't just choose to be taller than you are or to jump higher than you do, or, you know, like, so there's all sorts of things that we can't just choose to be different about ourselves, even though there is kind of this myth that we can.

Um, and, uh, the idea. Yeah, yes. The short answer is yes, that is a lie. Uh, you can't just be whatever you want to be.

[00:05:33] Cyd: Yeah. And I think I even, you know, I had that experience growing up in a, in a home where my mom was a pretty staunch feminist. And the thing I heard over and over and over throughout my childhood was you can do anything a man can do and you can do it better. And so that was actually, that ran my narrative through a lot of my life.

And you know, there were a lot of places in my life where I did run up against, you know, I was convinced that I could do anything a man could do and I could do it better. And then I ran into situation after situation where it's like, no, actually you can't do that because you're female. You actually can't do that because you're not strong enough.

You actually can't do that because you don't have the physiology right for that. And so that. That whole narrative that I had grown up in caused me a lot of frustration and confusion. And, but it took me a very, very long time to learn that I couldn't blow through every barrier that I couldn't like resist every, no, you can't do that.

I couldn't just sort of overpower and fight back until they said I could. Um, so it caused a lot of misery. and upset for me throughout my lifetime to have that idea that I can do anything that I want to do. I can do anything that a man can do and I can probably do it better. So

[00:06:50] Geoff: before we continue on, I want to add another kind of wrinkle to that, which is, uh, the, the burden of being happy. Uh, so we had on the podcast, uh, a while ago, David's all, who had a book called low anthropology and throughout the book, he basically said like the inflated sense of who we are and what we can accomplish is actually And that when you send your kids out into the world with the message, I just want you to be happy.

Well, mom, dad, what should I do with my life? Whatever makes you happy. Uh, should I live here that whatever makes you happy? Should I do that? Like that actually becomes, uh, A burden that you can never achieve because something else could always make you a little bit more happy. Something else could make you a little bit, you know, more satisfied with life.

Maybe this other job, maybe this other partner, maybe this, you know, and so what, like, how can you even measure that? I've arrived at like happiness, right? Uh, whereas I think, you know, before maybe 50 years ago, it wasn't like do whatever makes you happy. It's like, well, What is God calling you to do? Or what would be, um, good for your family or what would be, um, you know, what's the most healthy option, right?

There's all sorts of other ways you could frame, uh, the guidance that we have throughout life. But that idea of do whatever makes you happy and the freedom then to pursue what makes you happy. And of course it's built into our bill of rights, you know, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Um, and so it's all kind of built into the American way of life.

But I think the spiritual traditions, which we're going to get into, have kind of known all along that that's not actually a way toward happiness. Uh, I actually even think now there's quite a bit of, uh, scientific psychological research that is also agreeing with those ancient spiritual traditions. 

[00:08:34] Cyd: Yeah. So let's start turning our attention then to Jacques Philippe and what he says in this book,

[00:08:39] Geoff: Could you just say that a little more French though? I need like, because it's like.

[00:08:43] Cyd: Jacques Philippe,

[00:08:44] Geoff: we go. There we go. It's like P H I L I P P E. So, I needed to like, I needed all of it. There we go. Okay. 

[00:08:52] Cyd: a high school, French high school, French, and a little bit of college. And that's as far as I got. So he talks about, also he talks about the pursuit of happiness like you're talking about, but he also talks about it in the sense of like, we have this, um, We find confinement to be unbearable, um, simply because we are created in the image of God and we have within us this unquenchable need for the absolute and for the infinite, infinite.

And so that causes us to sort of aspire to freedom. Um, and we think that freedom is going to make us happy, but the way that we conceive of freedom is that The thing that he wants to talk about, but he even says like freedom appears to be very nearly the only value about which people still agree unanimously in our time period that like everyone should be free is like the thing that we seem to unanimously unanimously agree about, but we still don't know how to talk like it.

We still have a very different understanding of freedom. So he talks about this aspiration for happiness and freedom. Um, uh, we don't really, it's impossible for us to be happy without. love. And so he's talking about how, but when you love someone, there is no such thing as real love without freedom because freedom gives value to love and love is the precondition for happiness is the way he puts it.

And so he kind of draws that to how God doesn't coerce us or force us and God gives us freedom. Um, but then he also talks about how, so there's this pursuit of freedom, the search of freedom that we all agree. It's important. There's this connection between freedom and happiness. And then he raises the question about freedom is, is freedom claiming autonomy?

Like I can do it all myself or is it accepting dependence? Um, so he has this great quote that I really like. If you have the book, it's on page 15, but it's people who wish to preserve and defend their own freedom at any cost. We'll lose it because those willing to lose it by leaving it trustingly in God's hands, we'll save it.

Our freedom is in fact, proportionate to the love and childlike trust that we have for our heavenly father. So the way that he puts that, I love it. It's, you know, it's sort of It echoes that those who try to save their lives will lose it. And those who lose their lives will find it. But it's that sort of question of like, is autonomy that sort of like, don't tell me what to do.

Don't limit my choices. That's actually going to cause us to lose our lives rather than to find it. And then that draws up this really important question, right? Is freedom an outward thing? That is based on our environment and our circumstances, or is it something different? And he, he's writing this whole book as a proof and a defense that freedom is actually something internal, not something external.

And that when we find freedom internally, it can never be taken away from us. Okay. You put a little finger up in the air. What did you want to say?

[00:11:45] Geoff: So, um, I think, I just wanted to go back to the, the claiming freedom as a, as autonomy. Uh, and so that goes back to our understanding of, Like freedom and rights and the catch 22 there is, is people still want connection. They want intimacy. They want relationships. They want to value, uh, vulnerability. They want to receive all those things from people, but the only way to truly get those things is also to give them.

Um, but. That's where the autonomy then runs into problems is you can't seek unlimited autonomy if you're also looking for connection on. So that's where, uh, that's all. That's where we have always kind of really valued the perspective of attachment theory, which was. Early on pushing back against, uh, some of the psychoanalytic theories going all the way back to the 1950s, where they viewed human development as one of moving from dependence to independence is the path of maturity is then to cut in a sense, those institutional and relational ties and to find your true self or something like that.

And attachment there, he said, Whoa, I don't think human development cuts ties with People, but that this thing called attachment, uh, shifts and takes on a different kind of form in relationships as you get older and as you mature, but you actually never sever ties with attachment figures. They might change and transition.

And so that's why John Bowlby, he used that word attachment because it was positive or at least not negative sounding. Whereas dependence, um, sounds negative, uh, at least in our kind of modern Western kind of world. So. So yeah, who are we attached to, uh, and does that curb our freedom or does it not? 

[00:13:36] Cyd: Yeah. Well, and what are we attached to, right? Like if you, uh, we'll get to Ignatius in just a second, but I just want to read this quote from the introduction of the book, just to like, this is sort of the book in a nutshell. So in the introduction he says, every Christian needs to discover that even in the most unfavorable outward circumstances, we possess within ourselves a space of freedom.

that nobody can take away because God is its source and guarantee. Without this discovery, we will always be restricted in some way and we'll never taste true happiness. But if we have learned to let this inner space of freedom unfold, then even though many things may well cause us to suffer, nothing will really be able to oppress or crush us. We gain possession of our interior freedom in exact proportion to our growth in faith, hope and love. So Geoff, I know you've read this book and I know we've had lots of conversations about it, but what stands out to you sort of as you hear his reason for writing the book, his introduction? 

[00:14:44] Geoff: Well, it sounds like, you know, he's, he's aligning himself with, uh, the apostle Paul who speaks about finding joy in the midst of any circumstances. And how is it that you find that joy? Um, it's, well, it's, you are, dwelling within the space of freedom to frame and understand situations, uh, by a different perspective.

And this is, you know, Jacques Philippe talks about the source and the guarantee being God. And I've just been learning a little bit about, um, this idea of the locus of controls. How do you see Where control lives, uh, in your lives. And so there's what are called people who have an external locus of control, and there's people who have predominantly an internal locus of control.

You can see where this is going with internal freedom, but people who are external, uh, they always see life as being controlled by external forces. That my actions don't really cause change in the world. So it's, you know, in the ancient world to be like the gods or the fates, uh, you know, or, or, you know, more contemporary times it is the government or some vast conspiracy, or just sometimes it is, um, you know, my boss or something like that.

Right. So, but the things in my life, um, are out outCyde my control, whereas an internal locus, of control. They don't necessarily claim that everything is under their influence, but they do have a sense that their thoughts and their actions exert some kind of influence in the world that, uh, what they do makes a difference and that they've shown pretty concretely that people with an internal locus of control are happier, that they're more resilient.

They're more collaborative and the more creative, uh, with the people in their lives. Uh, and so this idea of internal freedom seems to be aligning also with this idea of an internal locus of control is I have a place of freedom that is untouched, uh, by circumstances

[00:16:35] Cyd: Mm hmm. Yeah, which then also makes me think, I mean, it made me think of Ignatius and his first principle and foundation in the spiritual exercises and how he talks about like our purpose in life is to love God, to reverence God, and to like, to praise love, I'm getting them in the wrong order.

[00:16:53] Geoff: reverence and serve God, our Lord.

[00:16:56] Cyd: There we go. There we go. And then he also talks about how all things in creation are there for us to enjoy and are there to further our ability to do those things. But then he talks very specifically about how, if any of those things become, too big in our lives, or if we attach ourselves to those things, which sounds like the external locus of control in a lot of ways, like we put our faith or our hope or our trust in these things, rather than it, like it displaces God from our lives and then hinders our freedom to be able to live into our true purpose, which is to love and serve and praise God.

[00:17:36] Geoff: So to quote, he says, uh, All the other things on the face of the earth are created for human beings to help us to pursue the end for which we are created, which is flourishing with God, which is the praise, reverence, and serve God, which is the highest goal. Um, from this, it follows quote, that we ought to use these things to the extent that they help us toward that end, but we also free ourselves from the extent that they hinder us from it.

And so the act. Of freedom is to know when the things outCyde of us are helping or hindering us and that we have the freedom then to do it. And it's not necessarily a right or wrong thing. Um, it's a freedom, uh, that all things are given to us freely, um, that aren't. explicitly forbidden, but that we can freely use them or not.

[00:18:30] Cyd: Right. Which then also makes me think about, you know, I, I mean, I do a lot of work with people to help become, uh, regulated in your body so that when you are presented with external circumstances or outward conditions, um, you can recognize, do I feel free to respond in this moment or am I sort of held captive by a compulsion or a need to react?

Um, and that can often be like a physical. Need to react. Um, and so that's where, you know, nervous system regulation kind of stuff comes in. But it's like the capacity for freedom to actually recognize attachment to things outCyde of us, uh, has a lot to do with whether we can actually even notice whether we're free or not.

And so even just recognizing, do I have the capacity in this moment to decide how I'm going to behave and what I'm going to say, or am I just simply reacting? Um, to the world outCyde of me. So that's what it stirs up in me. That idea too, of like the capacity require freedom requires a capacity to be free.

Um, and what he's going to talk about later, which I think we're going to talk about in our second episode is that love he talks about the emphasis on love and love requires a capacity also. And so that's why I love so much of the work that we're doing with attachment too, is because. It's, it's helpful for people to understand where capacity is diminished so that we can actively be working to build our capacity so that we actually become more free. Um, and so in some ways I'm, it's like secure attachment is freedom because that attachment in a

[00:20:10] Geoff: I think so.

[00:20:11] Cyd: makes us more free to. Um, yeah, to be agents of, of our lives rather than respondents of reactants, actually.

[00:20:22] Geoff: Right. So,

[00:20:23] Cyd: let me ask that question.

[00:20:24] Geoff: well, hold on. So that was, uh, that was a distinction that, that we talk about sometimes in our cohort between, uh, responding and reacting. We respond in freedom, uh, to what's going on rather than reacting. And then we're like, Oh, I didn't know that. That's not the person I want to be, or I regret what I said.

So that's like an unfree act that just came right out of us. Um,

[00:20:49] Cyd: unrestrained, unintentional. Yeah.

[00:20:53] Geoff: and that's also why, uh, Cyd is kind of planning this whole thing as we're talking about interior freedom in the book is called interior freedom, but it's also why you and I have actually kind of moved away from using freedom language. And you just shifted to like agency language is freedom can often go to that external locus of control kind of framework, which is.

Is the situation constructed so that I have enough freedom. And if I don't have enough freedom, it's because the situation is not constructed in such a way that I have freedom, whereas, and I know a lot of work that you do with clients is, is to kind of shift that and say, well, you might feel like you don't have freedom, but.

In what ways can you still act in this situation, even if it's just for you, even if it's just, uh, self care or reframing something. And so the agency question is often where we've kind of turned to. 

[00:21:41] Cyd: Yeah, which is why I wanted to talk about this because this little book is just really mighty in its way of sort of reframing how you really always do have freedom, even when it doesn't feel like it. And I love that we're going to do two episodes because there's a lot more to come. Um, but in this space before, so let's sort of like start, start landing the plane, right?

So why? In your perspective, Geoff, uh, why is it an important concept for Christians to understand? Like, why is it so important for us to understand that freedom is actually something internal that can't be taken away from us? Or for anybody, not just Christians, but why, why would that make a difference in our lives? 

[00:22:23] Geoff: Oh, that's a big question. Well, so, you know, in Galatians chapter five, five, one, I believe, you know, it says for freedom, we have been set free in Christ. Uh, and like you said, opening up, you know, human beings have this interesting, um, Godlike trait of being able to expand beyond our circumstances. Uh, you know, we live anywhere we want in the world.

We're not bound by instincts the way animals are. So, right. So freedom is built into us, but it's not, but we need to shift from a freedom from, um, kind of, Mentality to a freedom for. And I think that's like, what are we using our agency or our freedom for? Um, because I think that is what, um, like the early church and Paul, you know, we're speaking of the freedom is for is it's the four loving others for loving God.

Uh, and so, uh, Augustine would make a distinction, uh, and this gets really confusing in English because a lot of his works translated into English. Uh, and this comes to the reformation because someone like, um, Martin Luther also wrote like books called the freedom and the bondage of the will. Uh, and so when someone like Augustine will, will argue on behalf of the freedom of the will or the lack of freedom of the will, we get confused because, uh, he means two things.

One is what we have. Freedom to choose between alternatives. That's kind of what he means by freedom of the will, uh, is well, I can, I can have a donut today or I can have, you know, a pancake or I, or I can have a salad for lunch, right? I'm making choices. Um, But he doesn't call that freedom. What he did, that's just kind of like the basic baseline human life is to have freedom between choices.

What he calls freedom is to be able to pursue, pursue a life that flourishes in goodness and beauty and love toward God and toward others, that is true freedom, and that's actually our sin. Um, that. Spontaneously captures us, captivates us, makes us captives of all these other reactions of the sinful habits such that we are not free.

Uh, and so I think that this kind of conversation of inner freedom is, is to try to get at that, like, well, what ways are we unfree that are internal to ourselves that then we sometimes blame as being external and then how can we pursue and cultivate that freedom on the inCyde? So I don't know if that's what you were expecting, but there we go.

[00:24:52] Cyd: Yeah, no, I, I didn't know what to expect. I just wanted to ask you the question. Yeah. I think, you know, it's, it reframes freedom. Um, and I think the reality is, is that as long as we live with other humans on the earth, Um, there is no way that we can all have an unlimited range of options and choices without bumping into each other and causing problems or, or without our freedoms ending up becoming something that is a threat or an unfreedom to someone else.

Um, and we could go have a whole podcast about that, but we're not going to. Um, but the thing that feels really important in all of that is this understanding that You know, the freedom is not something that I have to expect the world around me to create for me, but that freedom is something that is actually internal because of God, because of God's love, and because I can have faith in who God is, and because I can hope, that he, I can have confidence in what he's up to, and then I can have love, um, for him and receive love that gives me that freedom.

And I know there's probably a lot of things coming up because when I first read this book, I had all kinds of like, but what about, But what if, but what it, so we're going to get to at least one of those in the next episode. Um, but just wanted to at least say that reframing has been so important for me.

Um, it has radically changed my, um, sort of resistance against anything that would ever limit my freedom. And it has helped me to sort of come to terms with in a really positive way. That I actually am a limited creature and the sooner I can learn to live within those limits, the, the happier, the more satisfied, the more joyful, uh, the more grateful I will be.

Um, and so personally, it's been a great impact for me and I'm looking forward to talking more about it. You just grabbed

[00:26:50] Geoff: Yeah, well, I was just, um,

[00:26:52] Cyd: Absolutely. Exactly.

[00:26:53] Geoff: was just thinking through that, um, the dynamic between inner and outer or internal and external is that Jacques Philippe, um, and the, you know, the spiritual tradition, Christian tradition speaks about this inner freedom, but the inner freedom then is freedom. For, um, in a sense, an external love is that I love others.

And then I love God, God who loves me. Who's not just me, uh, but is actually something different than me. Uh, and that, uh, I pulled off the book, uh, this book called. Called the shape of joy by Richard Beck. I'm showing it for all of you, uh, watching on YouTube. And, uh, there's a podcast episode coming up with him where we talk about the book and he's also a part of our attaching to God summit, which is also coming up soon.

It's in the show notes. It's a free online summit, but he talks about how the, the, um, The shape of joy in our modern worlds, uh, is to turn in on ourself, uh, to be located in ourselves. And then he may makes this whole argument that actually the shape of joy is actually to encounter things that are outCyde of you.

Uh, and that that's where the joy and the true happiness comes from. And so I see that going along with what Jacques Philippe is talking about for inner freedom is that I'm trying to cultivate an inner freedom so that I can Fully available to the people who are not me so that I'm not, and he talks about like the ego games, he talks about, uh, hero games and, um, self esteem and how all these things are, is just me being turned in on myself, but that's not actually freedom.

That's actually being a captive to all the things external. Uh, and so Jacques Philippe is trying to reverse. That as well as Richard Beck is trying to reverse that is that if we can have this inner freedom, then all these good things can flow outward to what is beyond us. So I think maybe the question, and I think you had a concluding question, but the concluding question for me would be something for this podcast is for all of you listeners to ask, what am I seeking freedom for?

Um, or what am I seeking freedom from, which is connected to a four, um, because, um, Our culture and certain, uh, therapeutic, and I would even say, and you and I are both like extensively trauma informed in training, but there's certain trauma informed tendencies where freedom is just for me, uh, and that does flow against.

the Christian spiritual tradition, which says, well, no, that is actually bondage. True freedom is forgotten for others. And so that question is like, as we keep peeling down, and of course I know all those things could be abused and they have been, uh, in churches and city with canal and the cohorts, you know, you work with people who have had the message of freedom turned against them, right?

Maybe that's a whole nother other podcast. Um, but those are my thoughts. 

[00:29:42] Cyd: Yeah. So just to sort of summarize, right, that like the point of being internally free is so that we can be free to love, like to love other people, to love God, and that that would make a difference in our world, um, because freedom wouldn't be just about me. And preserving my freedom, but it would be about using my capacity for freedom internally in order to be more loving, more serving, more able to fully participate in the flourishing of God's world.

Yeah. So you asked a really good question. Can you say the question that you asked to help people reflect like a question for people to think about? And then I'll ask

[00:30:22] Geoff: If I am seeking freedom, what am I seeking freedom for? What is

[00:30:27] Cyd: or from, right?

[00:30:28] Geoff: primarily, what is freedom for that I'm, is it for me? Is it for others? Is it something else?

[00:30:36] Cyd: Yeah, which is related to the question I was going to ask, which was just an invitation to notice, how are you seeking out freedom? So I'll just add my other question then instead of the, cause you kind of hit that with the, what am I seeking freedom for or from? Um, and then another good question to really think about is how do you, or to begin to notice, how do I find myself reacting?

When I run up against a circumstance that seems to hinder my freedom, um, and just to, just to notice that, and we'll talk more about that in our next episode, but what do I notice about my own responses when something around me seems to tell me that my freedom is limited? How do I react to that? Yeah, and that was only the first 20, 24 pages of the book, maybe even less than that.

It's just a really tiny book. That's what I actually like about it. It's so small. It actually has 133 pages, but

[00:31:30] Geoff: That's a small

[00:31:31] Cyd: there's so much meat

[00:31:32] Geoff: dimensions of it. It's a small little square.

[00:31:34] Cyd: so cute and tiny. It's like, Very small. Anyway,

[00:31:39] Geoff: All right. So give us a little tease for the next one. 

[00:31:41] Cyd: Yeah. Well, the next one is, okay, so what do I do in situations that I don't feel, I don't perceive to have freedom in a situation or an environment?

How in the world can I still be internally free in a situation where I seem to have no freedom?

[00:31:57] Geoff: All right.

[00:31:58] Cyd: That's the question in front of

[00:32:00] Geoff: So when it's clear or ambiguous that I have any freedoms externally, how can I still cultivate? inner freedoms and what might that look like. So that'll be next time. Thanks all for listening. Please like, and subscribe, um, on YouTube, Substack, all the different places. It's in the show notes.

Please share this, uh, if you found it helpful and we'll talk to you next time. 

Um,