Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

114 The Dynamics of Anxiety and Faith (with Steve Cuss)

• Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw

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In this episode of the Attaching to God podcast, hosts Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw welcome Steve Cuss. They delve into the nature of anxiety, different coping mechanisms, and how these dynamics affect relationships, including one's relationship with God. 

Steve highlights the importance of addressing reactivity, identifying false needs, and fostering supportive environments within leadership teams. The episode also touches on creating inclusive spaces for minorities in leadership and discusses Steve's future project of developing an anxiety assessment tool. The conversation is engaging and insightful, offering practical tips for leaders striving to create healthier, more resilient communities.

Steve Cuss is the author of Managing Leadership Anxiety and The Expectation Gap: The Tiny, Vast Space between Our Beliefs and Experience of God,  and also a columnist and host of Christianity Today’s Being Human podcast. Steve founded Capable Life to help people lower anxiety, break stuck patterns and increase well being in the workplace, home place, and in your faith.

00:00 Steve Cuss

00:14 Introduction and Guest Introduction

01:21 Formula One Fandom

05:35 Steve's Background and Capable Life

08:27 Understanding Anxiety and Relationships

13:47 Differentiation and Attachment

17:58 False Needs and Chronic Anxiety

23:25 Coping Mechanisms and Insecurity

23:46 Overconfidence and Pretense

24:25 Trauma Chaplaincy and Self-Discovery

26:19 Building Healthy Church Cultures

27:09 Pursuing a Doctorate and Integration of Disciplines

28:16 Understanding Protection and Pretense

31:14 Addressing Organizational Anxiety

33:37 Minority Experiences in Leadership

38:53 Contagious Emotions and Jesus' Example

42:05 Final Thoughts and Future Plans



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Introduction and Guest Introduction 

Geoff Holsclaw: Welcome back to the Attaching to God podcast, hosted by Geoff and Cuss Holsclaw. This is a podcast exploring a neuroscience informed, spiritual formation and produced by embodied faith. We are really glad to have a friend, uh, Steve Cusson today. He is the author of several books, managing Leadership Anxiety.

Also, the more recent the expectation gap. Which, uh, investigates that tiny, vast space between our beliefs and our experience of God. He's also a columnist and a host for Christianity, Christianity, today's Being Human Podcast. And Steve founded The Capable Life, which is helping to, um, move people outCyde of anxiety, to break patterns and increase [00:01:00] wellbeing.

Steve, thank you so much for being on the podcast with us today.

Steve Cuss: Oh, it's, it's great to be with you guys. I, I love the work you're doing, so I, I've been looking forward to this chat.

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, well we are so

Steve Cuss: so glad. I know we, it took a while to get this on the calendar, partly because you're entering in

Geoff Holsclaw: life stage of new work, which we're gonna get to in a second. 

Formula One Fandom

Geoff Holsclaw: But as of the recording of this podcast, we are desperately waiting for the return of Formula

Steve Cuss: one racing. Yeah, we're down to days,

Geoff Holsclaw: racing. Now,

Steve Cuss: you know. We're

Geoff Holsclaw: We are human

Steve Cuss: human beings.

Geoff Holsclaw: we're not just podcast hosts or authors like, you know, part of that

Steve Cuss: That being human,

Geoff Holsclaw: to be interested in sports. Now

Cyd Holsclaw: Oh

Steve Cuss: I really, you're gonna say that part of being human is gonna be

Cyd Holsclaw: sports.

Steve Cuss: okay. All of you listeners who are not interested

Cyd Holsclaw: I promise you're

Steve Cuss: in us, you're still human. Well, I think you could create a Venn diagram of human and sports, and

Geoff Holsclaw: I met us, so

Steve Cuss: so I got into f.

Geoff Holsclaw: just a couple years

Steve Cuss: Because [00:02:00] Cyd got me into it because our son got into it about five years. But you've been a fan all the time.

Geoff Holsclaw: you just give us the quick backstory?

Steve Cuss: Yeah. My dad, before I was born, so this is before I knew my parents, before I was born, my parents lived in Surrey, England. They worked for what's functionally now the McLaren team.

Back then it was Jack Braham. Uh, my dad was a mechanic. The guy that really made McLaren what it is today. A lot of Americans wouldn't know him, but around the world. He's known Ron Dennis, he was my dad's boss. I'll get these numbers wrong. Dad would've been 27 or 28. Mechanical engineer. My dad's kind of a genius machine guy.

Ron, I think was 17, maybe 18. I just graduated high school now running a Formula One team as a teenager and even back then, dad's like he was a genius. Like he was this incredible guy. So I grew up, I grew up at the racetrack. I raced competitive go-karts as a teen, like the Formula one guys do. The difference being there fast, I never [00:03:00] was, um, I never did it with any aspiration other than just enjoying.

I mean, it's amazing. You go 70 mile an hour and you're a kid. It's incredible. So I, I've probably been a big fan since 1981. I think I was old. I was 10. I was old enough. Then Nikki Lauder was coming outta retirement. That was big news. Um, I struggled to follow it in when I moved to America. It was hard to find it in America for a while.

And then as my boys became, let's, uh.

Geoff Holsclaw: put out their series, and now we're all fans.

Steve Cuss: Yeah, that's right. Netflix really has helped it. And then my boys, when they were teens in the early two thousands, I got them into it and yeah, we are, we're all in.

Geoff Holsclaw: Nice.

Steve Cuss: Wow. So

Cyd Holsclaw: what are you looking for?

Steve Cuss: in this season, I mean, just briefly, like Oscar Ptri, the new Aussie, this will be his third season.

I, I think he has a genuine chance at the World Championship. Um, so I'm excited to see how he does, but I, what most excites me, honestly, Cyd, is this is the first year. Where I think six or seven people could be [00:04:00] world champion. I can't think of, I can't think of in my lifetime when it's been that way. And when I was growing up, formula One was about minutes and seconds, and now it's about tenths and hundreds.

It's just gotten insane. So like if the sun goes behind the clouds and the barometric pressure changes on the track, that might lose you two tenths and the other guy gains two tenths and yeah. Yeah, so it's a great sport for obsessive people, which I think I'm one of those.

Geoff Holsclaw: Excellent.

Steve Cuss: Excellent. Alright, well we can shift gears, although we could probably fill,

Geoff Holsclaw: episode.

Steve Cuss: maybe we'll just have to have like an maybe we just need to put on the counter.

We'll, an annual.

Geoff Holsclaw: episode between being Human and the Attaching to God podcast, where we just talk about F1 for one episode

Steve Cuss: That'd be so good.

Geoff Holsclaw: just drop it in like February or something like

Cyd Holsclaw: And you can draw your Venn diagram of the overlap of humanity and sports fan.

Steve Cuss: That's right. Yeah. Sports fandom is a subset of all humanity.

Geoff Holsclaw: There we

Steve Cuss: There we go. Well, and the reason why we like F1 [00:05:00] because it's both like a team sports and an individual,

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: a real

Steve Cuss: real individual sport

Geoff Holsclaw: like tennis or

Steve Cuss: or golf like, kind of get that, but,

Geoff Holsclaw: sport person, you like all the things work. It's like both the same.

Okay.

Steve Cuss: well, I mean, we've gotta keep going though, Geoff, like. Your teammate is also your biggest competitor. You have to work with him and defeat him. The, the, the paradox and double binds in it are, are just fantastic

Geoff Holsclaw: And the way

Steve Cuss: and the way God created us to be constructors.

Geoff Holsclaw: build things in the world is exactly what

Steve Cuss: Yeah. Okay,

Geoff Holsclaw: cars from scratch. Okay.

Steve's Background and Capable Life

Steve Cuss: well, we'll we'll move on though, but so you, you've kind of different

Geoff Holsclaw: Shifts, uh, in your

Steve Cuss: in your life, in ministry.

Geoff Holsclaw: pastor, a local church pastor for many, many years. Uh, but then you've written a couple books and you kind of shifted, um, your work mainly toward this thing called Capable life. Could you tell us what that is? And then I want to get into this, um, new thing that you just started your program,

Steve Cuss: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: and clinical psychology.[00:06:00] 

Steve Cuss: What, what I do in a nutshell is I study the dynamics that mess up relationships, and there's only a few. There's actually a, a recurring core few dynamics that infect every relationship. So I do that and then I help people become more aware of their relationships, which I know that sounds funny, but maybe the most, um, the most inconspicuous relationship we have is the relationship with ourself.

Yet it is the relationship that dictates health in every other relationship. So I, when people get anxious, they always focus on another person. They either blame another person, get frustrated, why does he do it that way? Or they worry about that other person. They try to worry the other person to change.

So a lot of what I do is help you get back on yourself, notice what's going on in you. And then more recently, it was kind of a light bulb for me when I realized, oh wow. The same dynamics that infect our human relationships, also infect our relationship with God, which I know is a lot [00:07:00] of your territory with attaching to God.

Um, so that really lit me up. So capable life, we teach you the core dynamics that infect relationships so that you can manage them and be well in all your relationships. And we are really targeting Christian leaders in difficult situations. So that they can walk into those difficult situations and not catch all the anxiety and not spread their own, but be well,

Cyd Holsclaw: Oh, that's so important. So important.

Steve Cuss: Yeah. I feel like,

Geoff Holsclaw: now could just talk for five hours. Cyd works with a lot of ministry leaders, especially ones who've come out of really, um, you know, maybe traumatizing,

Steve Cuss: yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: but just certainly difficult situations and kind of walk some kind of through

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Steve Cuss: Yeah. And sort of walking that Dell.

Cyd Holsclaw: of like, yeah, what you experienced is not okay.

Steve Cuss: Yeah.

Cyd Holsclaw: And you need to recognize that there are some things within you

Steve Cuss: in knew that contributing

Cyd Holsclaw: the not okayness of the

Steve Cuss: is. Yeah.

Cyd Holsclaw: Right? It's not all outCyde of you. [00:08:00] And

Steve Cuss: And that's the part that's so hard to face is that there is, there is brokenness within me that interacts with the brokenness in the world around me that exacerbates that brokenness and makes it bigger than it needs to be.

Cyd Holsclaw: have a part to play and

Steve Cuss: And

Cyd Holsclaw: that gentle.

Steve Cuss: gentle awareness of Jesus meets you.

Cyd Holsclaw: are.

Steve Cuss: Yeah. Can you meet yourself? Right.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Understanding Anxiety and Relationships

Steve Cuss: It's a, it's such a fascinating question, like anxiety. You know, a lot of what I study is the gospel of anxiety. Anxiety's always sending us a message and it tends to say, look, it's all on you. There's nothing you can do. Just keep worrying. Um, and so I do find, I love what you just said, Cyd, because I do find, um, some people love the idea that they can take responsibility.

'cause now they have agency. And so for example, just to be direct, when I've worked with people in domestic violence. You think about [00:09:00] a domestic violence dynamic, the person who's the, who's the so-called victim of it, can often feel like, oh, I'm stuck. Well, I have no agency. But when you can help them gently see what they're doing, they, they're like, wait, I, I do have agency.

I can do things. So I do find it. Yeah. To be really helpful for people who want to be Well, you know, when Jesus said, do you want to be Well, I, I do find the kind of work the three of us do. We're hunting for people who want to be, well, I. Yes.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. And it's

Steve Cuss: And it's heartbreaking that,

Cyd Holsclaw: I mean, it,

Steve Cuss: I mean, it it that it requires

Cyd Holsclaw: in the wanting to be Well, yeah.

Steve Cuss: participation, right?

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Steve Cuss: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: So what,

Steve Cuss: What, just not to.

Geoff Holsclaw: all of your other work, but what are like one or two of those core kind of dynamics and that anxiety, uh, that you see in people that kind of sabotages over and over?

Steve Cuss: Yeah. So two, the two simple dynamics would be that reactivity, which is my specialty. Um, the problem with [00:10:00] reactivity is it's always based on a false need that's not being met. So the first dynamic is understanding your false needs. One of my false needs is people pleasing another one for me. Is looking smart.

I need you to think I'm a smart person. If you don't think I'm smart, I get reactive. So when a telemarketer calls me and says, our files indicate that your car is outta warranty, I know they don't have a file on my car. They're just cold calling. One of the reasons I know they don't have a file on my car is I have a 2004 Saab.

Like, what? It's a 21-year-old car. What do you

Cyd Holsclaw: no warranty.

Steve Cuss: There's no warrant. There's no warranties. Saab is gone like the, you know. And, but it's not enough for me to say Good luck with your next call. I get really combative with them. I'm not proud of this, but I'll be like, oh, tell me which car you're calling about.

I'm trying to prove to them that I'm not stupid. You can't trick me. So this weird thing rises up in me because of my [00:11:00] false need to look smart. Um, when that happens in our body, our body just injects us with a little bit of adrenaline. So we're all familiar with acute anxiety, which is when your body's in danger, swerving to avoid a car accident, jogging and coming across a snake, losing your child in a playground.

These would all be acute anxiety. You get full of adrenaline, your brain gets really focused. My field is false needs, and the problem is humans have 30 to 50 false needs. We're constantly getting little doses of adrenaline. This is why leaders burn out. Um, so that's one Cyde of what I do is help leaders identify their false needs so they can be well.

And then related to that, reactivity is the only kind of anxiety that's contagious. So trauma is not contagious. Grief is not contagious, but reactivity is. And so helping leaders notice the spread. I walk into the [00:12:00] room, I'm kind of spun up. Maybe you say something to me that triggers me. You've now shut down.

You've gotten real quiet. I'm overcompensating by trying to make you speak. Um, I teach people to notice the contagion. Then the third, the kind of the further dynamic is reactivity forms predictable patterns. Over time, we all fall into the same pattern. So most of my work is with teams. Well, over time it's become predictable.

It only takes me two or three minutes to find it. I walk into a team. Okay. Bob always uses the most words in every meeting, okay? John has to have the last word. Oh, Sally never speaks up unless she's called upon. These are predictable patterns, and so whether it's just a, a regular team or whether it's coming in, sometimes I'll, I'll come in after some kind of moral failure situation.

Where the stakes are much higher, it's still a predictable pattern. The person who had the moral failure is the most anxious in the [00:13:00] room, but because they're generating the anxiety and they're not carrying it, or another way, they're not taking responsibility. Everyone around them is carrying their anxiety.

Therefore, they will continue their bad behavior. So usually when I come in to do talk about moral failure, the team thinks I'm gonna be focusing on the person who got caught. But I'm always interested in all the dynamics around that person that kept them propped up. So those would just be a few handfuls of kinds of work that we do.

Um, and, and listen, it gets as simple as noticing what happens when you're trying to get your kids out for school in the morning. Um, the anxiety flying around there. Like it can be really simple as well. It doesn't have to be complicated.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm.

Steve Cuss: Yeah. I.

Differentiation and Attachment

Geoff Holsclaw: And it, it really kind of meshes with our kind of focus on attachment. Uh, there's

Steve Cuss: There's this weird kind of historical

Geoff Holsclaw: I think

Steve Cuss: mistake that the romantic

Geoff Holsclaw: kind of research [00:14:00] on attachment separated the pretty, um, normal. Insecure

Steve Cuss: insecure

Geoff Holsclaw: styles into

Steve Cuss: into ancient.

Geoff Holsclaw: and then avoid an attachment,

Steve Cuss: Yeah, which was unfortunately, because all the research said they're all

Geoff Holsclaw: They're just managing their anxiety

Steve Cuss: different. That's right. Anxious. Anxious

Geoff Holsclaw: who, who maybe you can

Steve Cuss: can read their

Geoff Holsclaw: through their actions and interactions a little easier. And then

Steve Cuss: and

Geoff Holsclaw: the.

Steve Cuss: anxiously avoid. Yes. Actively trying to avoid your anxiety.

Geoff Holsclaw: own anxiety. They're trying to, you know, uh, take

Steve Cuss: Take control,

Geoff Holsclaw: follow the rules or get in

Steve Cuss: get in their heads,

Geoff Holsclaw: Um, but

Steve Cuss: but yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: all managing anxiety and in, in our kind of Cyde of, of, of some of this work, the, uh, insecure attachment is just

Steve Cuss: Different strategy.

Geoff Holsclaw: which we, you know, try to work out that anxiety and avoid it and overcome it.

Steve Cuss: Yeah. That that's,

Cyd Holsclaw: no, go ahead.

Steve Cuss: yeah, I think that's a really important point, Geoff. 'cause like in systems theory, we teach [00:15:00] this thing called differentiation of self, and the two opposites of it are in measurement and attachment. And I, I find that. A more helpful phrase. 'cause the avoidance style sounds cool, but when someone's avoidant attached, they're still dragging your anxiety with them.

They're just creating distance to manage it. But, um, so I, I find differentiation helpful there because either way is an anxious response and you average Taipei entrepreneurial strong leader usually is the last person in the room to know he or she is anxious because they're being told their whole life that it's strength and gifting.

So that's some of my tougher work is helping that person see that their behavior is often a anxious response.

Cyd Holsclaw: So if I'm

Steve Cuss: So if I'm hearing,

Cyd Holsclaw: it sounds like you're

Steve Cuss: you're saying every single human has some anxiety? Yeah. The, the founder of the theory I trained in Murray Bowen Sports, sports, and Anxiety, we're working on that Venn diagram.

Geoff Holsclaw: here.

Steve Cuss: [00:16:00] Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Murray Bowen says, to be human is to be anxious. When I wrote my first book, the publisher asked me to, uh, change the cover and guarantee that we would eliminate anxiety by the end of the book. And I, I just laughed. I said, no, no. The best you can hope for is to manage it some of the time.

I think the good news said, in our experience, if you can manage anxiety like 20% of the time, it feels like 80% of the time, like you can actually live your life. Pretty anxious most of the time. Just a little bit where you're managing, it can really feel like transformation. I, I find that to be really encouraging.

So I, I covered this in my second book, but I'm currently encouraging churches to go away from that a hundred percent all in, for Jesus sold out language. I find that incredibly unhelpful. I say, let's see if we can start by following Jesus 15% of the time.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Steve Cuss: Yeah. Uh, let's start there. That's a, that's a [00:17:00] difficult goal.

Um, because if we keep using this a hundred percent language, we're all gonna keep pretending we are. And I just don't find that helpful

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's really helpful. I think that's a much more human

Steve Cuss: way.

Cyd Holsclaw: of communicating

Steve Cuss: Communicating it. And I, and I love how you talk about humanized too, that we get to be human.

Cyd Holsclaw: Um,

Steve Cuss: Um, and I can you.

Cyd Holsclaw: bit about maybe

Steve Cuss: Maybe how you're defining anxiety or how family system for your, whoever you're based in your work on. Yeah. How would you act define anxiety? Yeah. It's a, it's, we all have it.

Mm-hmm. It's a really important question, and I would first say that as a culture, we need to learn to use the plural. Um, because if we would just say. I, there are many anxieties. Now we can use curiosity. Well, I wonder what kind of anxiety you are dealing with. So I deal with one kind of anxiety. 

False Needs and Chronic Anxiety

Steve Cuss: There's like eight or 10 [00:18:00] different anxieties, but the one I deal with, chronic anxiety or reactivity, I would define it as a false need that feels real in the moment.

So I can tell you now soberly that I don't need your approval. But after this podcast is over, if you were to look at me and say, that was kind of boring, Steve, my body would tell me I'm in trouble, even though I'm actually not in trouble at all, but my body is acting like I'm in danger. Um, my wife Lisa, who is an attachment um, therapist, she'd, she'd love to chat with you guys sometime.

Uh, she, she has a real simple way. She says, we have head beliefs and body beliefs, and our body wins every time. No, it's not even a close fight. And so that's, that's my field is helping you learn to notice when you're having a physiological reaction, a microdose believing that you're in trouble or [00:19:00] danger, or that you are in deficit sometimes.

Reactivity says you need more when you don't. We've all met with somebody that needs constant reassurance, constant encouragement, and you give them that compliment and you see it just go into a black hole of abyss in their life and your compliments can't keep up with their internal condemnation. Um, so that's how I would define anxiety.

It's a false need that feels real in the moment. I wanna be so careful for listeners, because there are. Other anxieties that would be defined as a chemical imbalance that need a good medication. Uh, trauma would be defined as a real event that happened to your body, but in my field, reactivity a false need that feels real.

Cyd Holsclaw: Okay. And

Steve Cuss: Okay. And so what

Cyd Holsclaw: glad you just brought that up because

Steve Cuss: is, it sounds

Cyd Holsclaw: you're separating that, that that false need that feels real is a very

Steve Cuss: very common anxiety, regardless of whether you've ever experienced trauma or. That's right. Everybody, every human has false [00:20:00] needs because when we were kids, no matter how wonderful our family was, we were at a deficit. We didn't get what we needed. And we began to, and I know this, I'm talking to people who do this work, but we then began to develop coping mechanisms so we could survive life.

And I would just say that what we've done is drag those childhood agreements into our adulthood. And the thing that served us well as kids is now. Strangling us as adults. Now, trauma, I, I'm not trained in trauma. My wife's a trauma therapist, but I, I deal with so many people in trauma. I usually deal as a companion, not as an expert.

It gets so challenging, Cyd, because trauma is telling you the truth and deceiving you at the same time. Chronic anxiety is always deceiving you. My chronic anxiety is always telling me, I must make you happy. If you are hurting, I must say the right thing. None of that's all wildly unreliable trauma. Boy, it's tricky.

Like you deal with people with, with church [00:21:00] abuse. That really happened that that's true. So it's true. But also the meaning you make from it in the future is unreliable. So I find trauma to take a long time and require lots of gentleness and patience. Yeah. Yeah.

Cyd Holsclaw: Likewise. Yeah. I'm curious when you're

Steve Cuss: when you're about the, um,

Cyd Holsclaw: you know, the, the false needs in

Steve Cuss: in the, you know, in the moment

Cyd Holsclaw: and the

Steve Cuss: and the way that, that shows up as IV

Cyd Holsclaw: that line up with, so Geoff and I often talk about, you know, you're nervous and, I mean, this is

Steve Cuss: witnesses part of the, the science too. Yeah. But your nervous system has two priorities. Protect yourself. Yeah. And connect their people. Yeah.

Cyd Holsclaw: Am I reading you

Steve Cuss: Reading you right and saying that reactivity were in that. That's exactly right. Interested in connecting.

Cyd Holsclaw: in protecting ourselves.

Steve Cuss: That's exactly right. The first thing reactivity does is it disconnects you.

That's the first thing, and it puts you in a false reality. You're disconnected from yourself, from you. I can't [00:22:00] hear you anymore 'cause I'm busy trying to please you. This kinds of things. I, I'm not aware, I mean, God, it's not disconnected me from God. It's not like our sovereign or powerful God is saying, oh, I guess I can't be around anymore.

But it is disconnecting me from awareness of God, so I'm no longer. Relaxed into God's presence. I'm now operating on my own strength and what we teach is there's two forms of protection. There's the getting smaller, which is kind of like you are a turtle in your shell. The most common example of that is somebody who no longer feels safe to speak up in a meeting.

And then there's the getting bigger. We call that pretense. So we call it protection and pretense. They're really both protection, but that second one is much more aggressive. It's more armoring up. I have to make myself bigger than human to manage the situation. But both of them are a form of threat. Um, and it's so crazy because I'm not under threat at all.

So acute anxiety, seeing a tiger snake, that's [00:23:00] true. Trauma is true and false and chronic anxiety is always false. It's, it's so nuanced. I, I'm, I'm so glad we have these kinds of conversations. 'cause it's gonna take a lot of this for people to flesh it all out.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Can you say a

Steve Cuss: You say a little bit. I'm sorry, Jenny. You wanna, I know you wanna go into it something else.

I know you do. I just one more quick question. Can you say more about pretense? Yeah. 

Coping Mechanisms and Insecurity

Steve Cuss: Shows for that sort of behavior? Yeah. That, that would've been my main coping mechanism. So I grew up really insecure and afraid. Home was not a safe place. School was not a safe place. I was easily bullied. Um, and in fact, that turned out to be true as a pastor too.

I tended to attract bullies as a pastor. I was, that surprised me. 

Overconfidence and Pretense

Steve Cuss: Well, once I got to become an old teenager, I just compensated with wild overconfidence and arrogance,

Cyd Holsclaw: Hmm.

Steve Cuss: and I was always presenting an image of myself to you. And it usually involved charm, [00:24:00] brilliance, dominating the conversation, making you laugh.

Yeah, but I, I didn't realize for years that that was an anxious response. I just thought, wow, look at me. Thank God I'm here. Like now the party can start. I never quite said it that way, but I definitely acted that way. Um, and that's pretense. That's me curating an image to, I want to control what you see in me.

Trauma Chaplaincy and Self-Discovery

Steve Cuss: Now, when I was a trauma chaplain, what happened is my peers saw right through my pretense, first people in my life. They weren't the first to see through it. They were the first to reach through it and grab my, my blind spots and show them to me. And they were so threatening to me 'cause I'd never had somebody aggressively show me who I was that I didn't know existed.

Um, and so that was for me, my journey of salvation in some ways was my trauma chaplaincy, because there's nothing like walking into rooms of death. On a frequent [00:25:00] basis to drop your pretense. A pretense is not helpful in death. And then in my chaplain peer group, as we are, we are debriefing together. We debrief for 90 minutes every day together.

And they would point things out at me, I didn't even know were there. And noticing my threatened response like, and my response came out combative. Who are you? None mind your own business. That's. You guys are all liberal, like all of these different things where I'm trying to push people away and they're just trying to help me become an integrated human.

So I know I said a lot there, but that would be an example. I happen to be well acquainted with pretense. I'm sorry to say. Yeah, I just think, I mean, it's a great word, choice. I just really like that word because it is like, it's a, it's a projection, a false projection. Of

Cyd Holsclaw: what

Steve Cuss: what really is protective behavior.

Yeah, but it exudes self-conscious. Yes.

Cyd Holsclaw: but it's

Steve Cuss: But it's not that Some of our most famous moral scandals [00:26:00] in the church are the most anxious, terrified people who have coped for 30 years with pretense. And to me the tragedy is that their board was no help to them at all. Their board did not catch them early and say, Hey, we know where this train stops.

You know, and we can help you. 

Building Healthy Church Cultures

Steve Cuss: And that's part of the work I want explore in what Geoff's wanting to talk about. Yes. So go ahead Geoff. What a great segue. Well, I think all of us are there,

Geoff Holsclaw: to the hope,

Steve Cuss: but also building.

Geoff Holsclaw: like resilient church cultures,

Steve Cuss: Yep.

Geoff Holsclaw: building healthy, mature church cultures so that we can

Steve Cuss: We can see through things like.

Geoff Holsclaw: a healthy way. Right. Not, not in a mean or condescending way, but so that church boards, or just the older the

Steve Cuss: People

Geoff Holsclaw: could,

Steve Cuss: can help more. Yeah. Right. But I know that,

Geoff Holsclaw: of us in different ways, uh, we're really sitting, I are very much like talking about attachment. You're [00:27:00] talking like family systems and managing anxiety and, um. So that

Steve Cuss: so that question of change.

Geoff Holsclaw: healthy environments that it seems like that's kind of led you down this road.

Pursuing a Doctorate and Integration of Disciplines

Geoff Holsclaw: You're actually starting a doctoral program in, I think, clinical psychology. Is that right?

Steve Cuss: Yeah, the doctorate, you know, you know what's funny is I don't know technically what the doctorate is in. It's either leadership, psychology, clinical psychology, or systems theory. I, I'm only a month into it. What I do know is what I'm cha gonna be after your name. I, it's so fa I don't actually care what the doctorate is in, but it's what I'm chasing, uh, that I'm clear on.

Yeah. The, the, the topic and the goal.

Geoff Holsclaw: what is that? Um, 'cause this is partly why I was like, we gotta, we gotta just like talk for a bit because like, the integration of spiritual formation, uh, the best of psychology and theology, um, is I think what we're all really excited about.

But we feel not just

Steve Cuss: not because we're curious.

Geoff Holsclaw: we're all very curious individuals, but. a hope that there could be some sort of [00:28:00] transformation and integration that the church has been missing or gotten stuck in, in this thing called the modern church, where things have disintegrated in unhelpful ways.

So what

Steve Cuss: So what is your, like what, yeah, what's your curiosity?

Geoff Holsclaw: also what's your hope like that you're moving

Steve Cuss: Yeah. What I want to chase is actually what we were just talking about. 

Understanding Protection and Pretense

Steve Cuss: I want to create a very simple, it's probably a book for leaders to understand the human's proclivity to go into protection or pretense. Every, every one of us do it and there are levels of it that are fine.

Um, like if every staff meeting I'm looking for who's in it and calling them out, that's obnoxious, but. So I'm never interested in individual staff meetings. I'm only ever interested in ongoing patterns in any group. And if Sally always walks into the meeting feeling need to protect herself, that's not good.

So I want to create, uh, a way for leaders to understand this and teach them how to notice it in themselves and their people so that the leader's posture can, can [00:29:00] create safe space and safe space. That phrase, I think can be. Good and misused. I, I really mean in the way that the Apostle Paul would, would use it, like safe space to do difficult work for the Lord.

Not safe space where I'm fragile and need to get a massage after a difficult meeting. Actually the opposite, like, um, but I don't believe humans grow unless they're human sized. I think when we go into pretense and protection, w our souls are not as open to God because we're busy taking care of ourself.

So that's one whole stream of it. Um, related to that is a window of repentance. I, I think when we behave badly, like what often happens guys, is the, the people who behave really badly abuse. Um, and then when they get caught doubling down on their victims, you know, wielding power. These are some of the worst behaved people in our churches and, and [00:30:00] leadership.

I, I don't defend them at all, but they have become the convenience scapegoat, so we can avoid looking at our own complicity in it.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm.

Steve Cuss: And so I'm interested in, uh, one of my specialties when people come through our intensives is we sometimes have people who have behaved aggressively and in their testimony of our work, were the first group that weren't threatened by it.

Cyd Holsclaw: Hmm.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm.

Steve Cuss: So like if you come to our intensive and you have a really tough inner critic and you are down on yourself, to be honest guys, those are some of the easiest people to care for 'cause you feel sorry for them. But the person that comes bold and arrogant and certain, and kicking down a wall, we just want to put 'em in their place.

But in my approach, there's not much difference between the two. They're both just coping mechanisms. And my coaches and I have, have really field tested a way for even those aggressive, bad actors to, for the first time, be able to look at their [00:31:00] terrible behavior without shame

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Steve Cuss: of a peer group and explore why, what did they do?

Why did they do it? What are the consequences? So that's, um, hopefully 50% of my focus or more. 

Addressing Organizational Anxiety

Steve Cuss: And then the other Cyde is I want to end up generating a downloadable. Organizational anxiety assessment. If you, if you think of your average school teacher, maybe they've got 25 students, maybe that means they've got 40 parents.

Your average school teacher, um, is gonna fixate on four out of those 40 parents, the worst behaved parents. And in my assessment, I'd like them to be able to even get down to the percentage of brain space, like four, 10% of the parents occupy 60% of my brain. This kind of stuff. Uh, so it'll be a, it'll be a, hopefully a fairly robust assessment where you can locate the anxiety in the system, locate your attempted solutions, and begin to dissolve the [00:32:00] patterns to be well.

So it's kind of a audacious goal, but that's what I'm chasing.

Cyd Holsclaw: Uh, it's, it's brilliant. I love

Steve Cuss: I love that. I mean, I look forward to the day when

Cyd Holsclaw: exists.

Steve Cuss: I, I, I just see so many leaders, meaning, I mean, they've not been trained in this. Their, their very heart is to create safe space and vulnerability, but their actions and words ensure that people won't be vulnerable.

Um, so I really want to equip leaders. I'm not looking at putting people in their place or teaching them, but if I can just help leaders realize there's actually postures and techniques that ensure that people can actually show up as themselves in your presence. Well, you know what? I'm just gonna.

Cyd Holsclaw: you're saying 'cause I'll just be a

Steve Cuss: Be a little vulnerable here.

Um, you know, as a female pastor, I have worked with, you know, people who are justing of women in speech and language, but then it's hard to actually [00:33:00] feel that

Cyd Holsclaw: in the

Steve Cuss: in the climate and nature. Yes. And they don't even realize the way

Cyd Holsclaw: Inadvertently making

Steve Cuss: making it

Cyd Holsclaw: for a

Steve Cuss: or a woman to be there. You know, I mean, and that's just that, and I know so many women who feel the same way.

That's right. And that's not the only area where we say things like that, you know? That's right. What I hear you coming with is you have a heart to help,

Cyd Holsclaw: uh.

Steve Cuss: uh,

Cyd Holsclaw: Actions and behavior match the values that they are

Steve Cuss: that they

Cyd Holsclaw: and really wanting to like

Steve Cuss: Like let hearts line up behavior. 

Minority Experiences in Leadership

Steve Cuss: Let's talk about women in the church and then let's talk about black women in the church.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, I.

Steve Cuss: Cyd here. Here would be an example that will end up in my final product. I know that if there is less, like if you sit are in a room of leaders, I know that you are counting the number of women, and if there is less than a third, you are working [00:34:00] extra hard at being yourself. So if there's one woman, you'll almost certainly sit right next to her and co-regulate during the meeting Now.

That's, I'm not brilliant. I'm, I'm not a woman. I'm just curious and I'm really good at noticing things. And then I'll, what I did in the early days is go over and ask you like, Hey, sit. If we hadn't met, said, I might sit down at a break and say, do you mind if I ask? I'm really curious what your experience is like in this room, and there's no consequence to anything you say.

What's it like being only one or two women in the, and I know how to, so I've talked to hundreds of women like this. Sometimes this gets really funny 'cause I'm as white as they come. I am so white. I'm like translucent. Like I'm, I'm just a white boy. But sometimes I will be consulting a leadership team where there's one black woman and she will say to her boss, how come this guy knows more about me in an hour than you do in three years?

And I'm not, I'm not looking to outsmart like. But it's just [00:35:00] because the minority experience gets overlooked in most. If you are majority culture, you are generally blind to the minority experience, and you just don't realize how much hard work minorities take to be human sized. But I can be a white man in power and help minorities increase their chance of being human sized.

Um, it's not difficult, it just takes intentionality. So that would be a quick word on that.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Well,

Steve Cuss: Well,

Cyd Holsclaw: I think

Steve Cuss: I think create resource, you're talking about providing are so needed. Yeah. Because there are so many well intentioned leaders who just don't know how to help their into

Cyd Holsclaw: become the reality.

Steve Cuss: and, and they don't know.

They can't tell the difference between the Holy Spirit and their coping mechanisms.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Steve Cuss: And so the, so the need to into that, I mean, I can't tell the difference. Yeah. Like I still [00:36:00] have the coping

Cyd Holsclaw: and I'm like, is this you God, or is this just

Steve Cuss: mechanism. That's right. And it's not, it's not easy. I'm still on that journey myself, but at least I ask the question, like, my coping mechanism tells me to always make you feel better.

Cyd Holsclaw: Hmm.

Steve Cuss: It just, I, my core belief deeper than my belief in Jesus. I must help you feel better for me to be okay.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Steve Cuss: Took me a while to get there. That's pretty crazy. Um, so your average leader has such a low tolerance for tension. They interpret it as threat to their leadership. They already feel like they're inadequate as a leader, and therefore if a woman or a black person or a person of color says, here's my experience.

The leader hears it as a threat to their leadership and gets combative, which is the next, for your average lady or person of color, they just file that as, that was [00:37:00] 1133rd experience of the same thing. And so then for your minority culture, it's more of the same. It turns into a high defensiveness in an organization and the whole system perpetuates.

I, I don't want to be too Pollyanna. I'm convinced if leaders want to be Well, we can, we can do better in the next 25 years.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yes,

Steve Cuss: Yes.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm.

Cyd Holsclaw: yes.

Steve Cuss: Yes. Let's do it. Yeah, why not? Yeah, we're seen the other way. Let's do better.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Steve Cuss: Yeah. Well, I would love for, uh,

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, the capable life, what we're doing here in Embodied Faith, you know, hopefully we can

Steve Cuss: we can just keep checking in all each other. One of the things that you've mentioned.

Geoff Holsclaw: like, if we could just manage our anxiety, what'd you say? 10% more or 15% or something like that.

Steve Cuss: Yeah, it reminded me,

Geoff Holsclaw: kind of the stats that people, bring up about, um, what makes for a good relationship and they talk about attuned interactions and that the research says that you're. Misattuned or out of tune [00:38:00] 70% of the time,

Steve Cuss: yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: actually really only just clicking with people that you really care about and really know

Steve Cuss: Know about

Geoff Holsclaw: of the time.

Steve Cuss: and

Geoff Holsclaw: the, it's, this is why I'm curious about your windows of repentance, but it's that we talk a lot about the, the repair process.

That's what's key. We, we often think

Steve Cuss: we often

Geoff Holsclaw: is one where there's no ruptures, but a good relationship is one where you know the

Steve Cuss: know.

Geoff Holsclaw: repair,

Steve Cuss: Yes.

Geoff Holsclaw: can do it effectively and that you can do it. Um. all this shame or anxiety and judgment, you're just like, okay, well we missed

Steve Cuss: We missed other.

Geoff Holsclaw: Uh, and now, now, now we're getting back. And that road back repentance, but the repair and so, so important.

Steve Cuss: That's exactly right.

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh man. I just feel like there's so much more we could talk about

Cyd Holsclaw: I

Steve Cuss: I know so much more. Oh.

Cyd Holsclaw: have to do this again.

Geoff Holsclaw: probably do need to get going, but. Uh, you

Steve Cuss: Uh, you talked about anxiety as being contagious. Is there

Contagious Emotions and Jesus' Example

Geoff Holsclaw: my sense was that there's a reversal to that, that, because you said that's the only thing that's contagious, but I would like to think [00:39:00] maybe Sy you could say something, is that actually joy is the opposite.

Steve Cuss: contagious? Is when someone walk into a room.

Geoff Holsclaw: with a joyful countenance, with a glad to be with you, presence on their face and in their persona, that does start. At least maybe. I'm just hoping it would, but I feel like that is a

Steve Cuss: Contagious.

Geoff Holsclaw: Uh, do you

Steve Cuss: That's correct.

Geoff Holsclaw: that?

Steve Cuss: Yeah. So, so reactivity is the only type of anxiety that's contagious. That's the, that's the big one there. My assumptions about myself are infected by your expectation about me kind of thing. Um, but yes, there are many contagions. Um, and you know, that that 30% secure attachment that's very contagious.

You know, like that feeling of connection, I want more of that. Um, so, so in systems theory, Jesus of Nazareth, oddly enough, is conCydered the preeminent example of what they're trying to [00:40:00] teach. And he's just this connected pre you. You, if you read Jesus through the lens of attachment or, or connected presence, it'll like revolutionize your Bible reading.

When you start to realize James and John are putting their expectation on, Hey, just we've got a small request. If we could just be your right and left hand, no big deal, you know, um, then the disciples are disgruntled. But Jesus doesn't catch that The Pharisees are openly accusing him. He acts like he has nothing to prove and nothing to lose.

Even when he is on trial for his life in front of Pilate, then he leaves Pilate and he knows that he has to help Peter who's denied him. Like it's unbelievable. So, so yes, Jesus, uh, you know, why do people follow him 2000 years later? I mean, of course, divinity and, but also the magnetism, who doesn't want to be around that guy?

You know, who wouldn't wanna spend more time with that guy? Uh, so yeah, I totally [00:41:00] agree.

Geoff Holsclaw: Who, I have two questions. Who in the family

Steve Cuss: Family systems

Geoff Holsclaw: like zero in on Jesus that way? For the res, for the people who love

Steve Cuss: who love researching. Is that, is there like a book or just couple or just kind of come up?

Geoff Holsclaw: Uh,

Steve Cuss: I, I'm still, I still got some work to do on publishing. I, I want to, I wanna write a devotional through the scripture on the, through the lens of anxiety. I think that'd be really fun. I don't, I can't name someone right now.

There are, there are other Christian systems, theists. But, um, no one, oh, you know, Robert Creech. I would probably Robert Creech. Um, he's retired now. He was a, a counseling professor at Baylor for years at, uh, Truett Seminary and his, his system stuff is really good. So he and Jim Harrington and Tricia Taylor wrote The Leader's Journey Together.

Fantastic book. Jim and Tricia are still actively working. They're amazing at the Leader's journey. Robert's retired, but then he did a book. I have to pull the name out from the back of my head, but it's, it's something about [00:42:00] congregation. I have to Google it. Uh, he wrote a book about,

Cyd Holsclaw: I have that book.

Steve Cuss: yep.

Final Thoughts and Future Plans

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, I just want to end with that last kind of thought about what you were saying with G like. Reading Jesus'

Steve Cuss: Jesus' life through,

Geoff Holsclaw: lens or a managing anxiety lens. Uh, especially

Steve Cuss: especially,

Geoff Holsclaw: with like the disciples, uh, all the bonker stuff that Peter's is constantly doing.

Steve Cuss: you're doing right. You read.

Geoff Holsclaw: whole journey as like. Multiple strategies that Jesus is just peeling one off another, you know, all the way up to his denial then Peter's restoration. You know, it's just, it's such a beautiful, I think, helpful way to kind of think through those

Steve Cuss: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, Cyd, do you have any

Steve Cuss: Do you have any last comments

Geoff Holsclaw: before

Steve Cuss: or

Geoff Holsclaw: we

Steve Cuss: wrap up? Yeah. My thought is we need to do this again, Steve. It'd be fun. Yeah. We should get your wife on. So maybe next year, uh, I have your prediction of an.

Geoff Holsclaw: Pia

Steve Cuss: Three F1 championship. I'm writing that down. Yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: could, you [00:43:00] know, we could check

Steve Cuss: check that in. Who do you think, Geoff, who do you thinks got the championship this year?

Geoff Holsclaw: I'm probably rooting

Steve Cuss: rooting for land.

Geoff Holsclaw: I, I think

Steve Cuss: I think Oscar

Geoff Holsclaw: good,

Steve Cuss: pretty good

Geoff Holsclaw: you know George Russell, depending on if their car

Steve Cuss: comes together.

Geoff Holsclaw: So.

Steve Cuss: So if, if l it's, we could have a conversation about the, uh, anxieties that you have observed. In,

Cyd Holsclaw: the F1 drivers.

Steve Cuss: well, these rich, these rich kids driving these fast cars. It's, you know, if F1 is part keeping up with the Kardashians part engineering, part sport, um, if, if Lando wins, I'll be ecstatic for him.

If, if, um, uh oh the Ferrari, the young Ferrari guy who looks like a supermodel,

Cyd Holsclaw: Charles?

Steve Cuss: Charles Char, char Le Clare, if Lewis wins, I'd probably cry with joy. But I'm rooting for Oscar. Um, yeah, I we would love to come back on and you, and for your audience, you guys will be guests on my podcast being [00:44:00] human. I think the episode comes out in April or May.

I'm really excited to have you guys on to turn the microphones around, and I, I love the way you help us process attachment. Um, I, I, I heard recently the first criticism I've ever heard about attachment theory, which was somebody saying, once my. Coping style is diagnosed, I don't know what to do with it.

Like, what do I do? And I feel like you guys are really helping us do something with this knowledge. So I I, I love this conversation.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Steve Cuss: Well, just, just a quick answer for those,

Geoff Holsclaw: we try to stay out of that like attachment as your personality, but rather it's just a place on your journey and God's drawing us into secure attachment. and, you

Steve Cuss: your

Geoff Holsclaw: how do we,

Cyd Holsclaw: and it's understanding your

Steve Cuss: survive.

Cyd Holsclaw: so that you can develop new strategies.

Steve Cuss: Things that are more current.

Cyd Holsclaw: to today. And actually

Steve Cuss: I actually found a lot of good news about attachment. Like, well, if I,

Cyd Holsclaw: [00:45:00] the reality is I

Steve Cuss: is I

Cyd Holsclaw: grow

Steve Cuss: grow a more sticky.

Cyd Holsclaw: with God, and that's

Steve Cuss: That's really good. Yes. It's not, this is just who you are for the rest of your life. Yes, that's right. Now that you know. Vulnerabilities in this particular

Cyd Holsclaw: are, now you have some ways to move forward. So.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm.

Steve Cuss: survival thing, which sounds like what you're doing too, with understanding the false. Mm-hmm.

Geoff Holsclaw: yeah.

Cyd Holsclaw: and then

Steve Cuss: And then being able to

Cyd Holsclaw: it's not just my

Steve Cuss: just my personality. It's the way that I'm driven by these false, how these get stirred in me and then now that I'm,

Cyd Holsclaw: them, now I have a different choice.

Steve Cuss: yeah, that's right. Yep. Yeah. Well

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, where

Steve Cuss: work.

Geoff Holsclaw: find you online? Your website and the different, uh, work you do.

Steve Cuss: Yeah, probably the best thing is just to go to my, my website, steve cuss words.com and from there you can get my podcast or Capable Life or books, whatever you want, but that's probably the steve cuss words.com is probably the best place to start. Cus words. Yeah, did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, with a name like mine.

What are you [00:46:00] gonna do? Yeah. My, when my daughter was in second grade, she begged me to marry her off so she could get a new last name. In second grade, she was being teased at school. She came home from school. People were making fun of her. Um, and uh, yeah. So our name, we're gonna have fun with it. Yeah, that's great.

Married in

Geoff Holsclaw: and for her, that was an upgrade. She had a very,

Steve Cuss: school.

Cyd Holsclaw: I,

Geoff Holsclaw: uh,

Cyd Holsclaw: yeah, my

Steve Cuss: Yeah. My name was, so when I got everybody.

Cyd Holsclaw: you gonna take his name? And I was like, are you kidding? Absolutely. It's better than what I've got right now.

Steve Cuss: So good.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, thank

Steve Cuss: Well, thank you so much for your

Geoff Holsclaw: appreciate it. We'll talk

Steve Cuss: time. Uh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Cyd Holsclaw: I.