Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

120 The FISH Model: Beyond Modern Impasses to Spiritual and Emotional Health (with Dr. Marcus Warner)

• Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw • Season 7 • Episode 120

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What are the limitations of our modern approaches to discipleship and spiritual formation? How do our neural pathways connect to our spiritual pathways? Does brain-wiring connect to spiritual warfare? And how does this all connect to our identity in Christ?

In this episode of the Attach To God podcast, host Geoff Holsclaw delves into the intersections of neuroscience and spiritual pathways with Dr. Marcus Warner, president of Deeper Walk International. They explore the limitations of traditional enlightenment and Puritan-based approaches to spiritual transformation, and cover deeper discipleship through the FISH model (Freedom, Identity, Spirit walk, and Heart-focused community).

Dr. Marcus Warner has served as president of Deeper Walk International since 2006. He has written 16 books on topics ranging from brain science to spiritual warfare, including Rare Leadership, The 4 Habits of Joy-Filled Marriages, and Understanding the Wounded Heart. Marcus is a conference speaker who works with both ministry and corporate groups around the world.  His passion is taking complex topics and making them practical and accessible for everyone.


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Introduction to Neural and Spiritual Pathways

 

Geoff Holsclaw: How do our neural pathways connect to our spiritual pathways? Does our brain wiring connect to spiritual warfare? Are those two working opposed? Are they the same thing? Are they totally different things? How does all this connect to our identity in Christ? That's what we're talking about today. This is the Attach To God podcast, produced by Embodied Faith.

I'm your host, Geoff Holsclaw. And we are exploring a neuroscience informed spiritual information. 

Meet Dr. Marcus Warner

Geoff Holsclaw: I'm very glad to have Dr. Marcus Warner on with us today. He serves as the president of Deeper Walk International. Ever since uh, 2006, he has written 16 books on. Topics ranging from brain science to spiritual warfare.

Uh, some of those are rare leadership, which my wife loves and uses with, uh, corporate [00:01:00] clients. Uh, the four habits of Joy filled marriage, understanding the Wounded Heart and many others. He's a conference speaker and ministry leader, and he is passionate about taking complex ideas and making them practical.

Dr. Warner, thank you so much for being on with us today.

Marcus Warner: Yeah, I'm delighted to be here. This is great. I don't think we've had a chance to meet in person before, so this is kind of nice. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: No, we haven't. And you've been, uh, you and deeper walk have been in my orbit. Uh, and you know, I've read books and know people who know you, but I've never, uh, and then I've just gotten to know someone who works, uh, in the organization, uh, Greg, and, um. Uh, but we, yeah, we've never met. And then, you know, of course, and you know, and then I find out, I was like, well, we both went to Trinity International Divinity School, Ted's for short.

So, you know, for whatever that means.

Marcus Warner: Well, yeah, I guess it means we're both, uh, completely trustworthy. I suppose That's what the,

Geoff Holsclaw: Yes. Yes, that's right. We have mastered divinity, scripture, and theology. So we, we, we know, we know [00:02:00] all the things well. 

Dr. Warner's Personal Journey

Geoff Holsclaw: Okay, so that goes right to, uh, some of the things that you work on, which is, is that knowing more things doesn't always lead to transformation. Is that right?

Marcus Warner: absolutely true. In fact, some of my darkest days spiritually was while I was a student at Ted's. So I mean it's, I, uh. Yeah, I, I went through a significant depression when I first

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh no.

Marcus Warner: and yeah, so, and, and information wasn't the key because at the time, I mean, I was quoting entire books of the Bible.

I was six years into Greek. I was studying all the stuff and, uh, I was active at church. I was doing everything everybody said, you know, that is, I was, uh, studying to be a scholar. I was studying to, uh. Uh, being a, a minister, I was active in church. I was doing all the things and I was like, I remember getting to the point like, if this is all there is to Christianity, maybe I should look for something else.

'cause it didn't seem to have the answers to the problems I was facing inside. And, [00:03:00] uh, that was, yeah. So it was kind of a, that was kind of a, a, a tough season. But, you know, God met me and, and, uh, put me on a journey that's led me here and here we are. So.

Geoff Holsclaw: So you, you had that, that experience of going to seminary. But then a lot of, especially Pentecostals will be like you, we can't send our, our pastors there. It's cemetery

Marcus Warner: Yeah. Yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: that I was, but you actually kind of experienced that a

Marcus Warner: I did. 

Attachment and Spiritual Growth

Marcus Warner: Well, and what I came to understand, right, because at the, at the time, I was very left brain Christian, right? I didn't have much of a, I didn't know any of this attachment stuff. And what I didn't realize was that I was in major attachment pain when I started seminary. I had, uh. Had a very close group of friends in Fort Wayne, Indiana where I'd grown up and then I left.

And then my one attachment in the Chicagoland area was a girlfriend who broke up with me just as school started. And between the two things, it's like I couldn't have put it into words, but I was feeling [00:04:00] significant attachment pain, and no amount of information was touching that. And so, and then I was living off campus and isolated.

I wasn't, uh, I wasn't having community while I was there, and so it was just the perfect storm of attachment problems. And uh, I see it now, but at the time, I didn't know how to interpret what I was going through.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, so of course this is the Attachment to God podcast. You brought up attachment multiple times, but before we get into to that, the solution, which is to address that attachment pain, um, you guys talk regularly and you co-wrote a book with Jim Wilder called The Solution of Choice, and it talks about.

Primarily about kind of these two false starts, uh, that Western Christians get into, which is, uh, if we could just reason or no more, or if we could just try harder, uh, things would change. Could you kind of fill out some of the history, some of those ideas and how they work themselves out in the church and how we just get into trouble?

Marcus Warner: so Dr. Wilder came to me and said, I think we should write this book together. And I'm like, why You came [00:05:00] up with the model? And uh, I was like, well, uh, but. 

The Enlightenment and Volunteerism

Marcus Warner: I just wanna make sure he gets due credit here, but it's like the, uh, the Enlightenment basically taught us is the most important thing about being human was that we could reason and we could think, and the intellectual thought was, you know, that's the most important.

It's what separates us from the animals reason is the main thing. And so to prepare. Pastors for ministry, we sent them to a school to get intellectual training so they could defend the faith and show the rationalists that we could be just as rational as them. And so the problem was that hasn't borne the best fruit in the world.

And it's not like we're opposed to knowledge. Obviously we're both well educated people, but it's a, uh. Uh, understand that that isn't, that isn't the, actually meant to be. The foundation of the faith isn't supposed to be reason. And, uh, after that there was a movement that, that said, well, uh, it's called volunteerism.

And I'll be honest, I hadn't [00:06:00] heard of it until Dr. Wilder introduced me to it. And, uh, volunteerism was the main philosophical system embraced by the Puritans and the pilgrims who founded America. So you see it in. Most of evangelicalism was anchored in volunteerism. And it's the idea that your will is what is most important about you, that you have one will, right, and that you need to master that will, and that that's at the heart of Christianity.

And now everything in Christianity became about choosing, right? And then so you choose Christ, you know, to become a Christian and you choose. To be joyful and you choose to, uh, do everything and you choose to love people and loving your wife is a choice that you make and all these things. And so there was no place for attachment in these philosophies.

Um, and uh, and then we got to the, um, nie, the Nietzschean era, uh, modernism began where he's like, this doesn't work. And he said, that's not really matters. It's the power to make the change that matters. [00:07:00] And the church has just sort of reacted to where culture was going each step along the way. And that is, we are like, oh, reason's the thing.

Well, we can't be as rational as you. Oh, the will, well, not nobody talks about Will more than us. You know, we wanna make good choices. And then power, oh, we've got the Holy Spirit, we've got power on our side. So we kept reacting and adding things to it. And then we get to the modern world with postmodernism and uh. Uh, and basically Doc Jim Wilder, he described it as waving the white flag of surrender and saying, you know what? This actually doesn't work.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marcus Warner: Everybody in the church knows it doesn't work. Pastors know it doesn't work. I can't stand up there and tell people what they ought to do and trust that they're gonna go make the choices to go do it.

And even people, you know, who are some of the most spirit-filled people have had some of the biggest falls and have some of you know, it's, there's no connection between the power of the Holy Spirit and maturity. Which [00:08:00] sounds heretical to some people, but it's a relationship with the Holy Spirit that connects to maturity, not the power of the Holy Spirit that connects to maturity.

And, and so we got to postmodernism and the idea that, well, nothing really works anyway, so let's just accept everybody the way that they are and not expect any change. And, uh, just quit even talking about change. And let's just, uh. Um, and, and so we, every, every stage has a problem and the idea largely is that it's because we lost any sense of the need for attachment in, uh, in our theology and in our discipleship. And so that in, you know, that's my five minute version of the book.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, that was fantastic. That was really great. So, so as a rough summary, you know, since the enlightenment. It's like, well, either transformation happens through what you know, or then transformation happens through how hard you could try or transformation happens. 'cause the spirit just shows up that I'm currently in a [00:09:00] charismatic church, you know?

And some of the younger pastors are like, yeah, that's what my parents always said. They're like, if we can just wait for more of the spirit, then everything will change. Right? But that doesn't always lead to change. And then there's the waving of the white flag. And I see this a lot online where it's just like everyone's accepted the way they are.

I even saw someone post like, the good news is. And they're kind of like ex church kind of people, but he's like, the good news is is that you don't have to change at all. It was like, and then, and then parentheses, they had no repentance required. I was just like, okay, so. So those are kind of some of the movements of, you know, maybe the last four or 500 years in Western culture.

The FISH Model for Transformation

Geoff Holsclaw: So deeper walk is kind of like, well, how can we take the best of the findings of the brain science, neuroscience, relational neuroscience, however you talk about it, as well as, you know, good theo theology and Bible. Uh, and you kind of put together this thing, and I love it because, you know, I'm a, I just love these types of things.

So you have a like acronym that's just called Fish, right? So, uh. Could you just kind of walk us through that model a little bit that tries to get, [00:10:00] uh, into someplace where true change does happen?

Marcus Warner: Yeah, so we don't anchor this model in brain science. We anchor it into the Bible and we bring the brain science into it. And so the foundation of, of our model is ask, answering the question, how do people change from a gospel perspective? And so I. Phish represents four foundational elements of the gospel message.

And you can picture it with baptism. And that is that we die with Christ. Like we go under the water baptism, we die with Christ. So the question is why? Why do we die with Christ? And the answer we give is that it's to free us from all that enslaves us. So it frees us from the law, us, from sin free, us from death.

Frees, frees us from all things that enslave us. And so now discipleship is you have been set free. Let's learn how to live in that freedom. Then we are raised with Christ as the second one. Well, why are we raised with Christ? Well, we're raised to eternal life, but we're also raised to a new identity. And so discipleship then is the path of, do you have a new identity?

Let's [00:11:00] learn how to, uh, embrace that identity, live out of that identity, which leads directly to the idea of maturing. Right. And that is, I have the same identity as an infant and a child, an adult, a parent, and an elder. But the manifestation of that identity is gonna be different as I mature. And so that's the second foundation of, uh, discipleship.

And then the third is that I'm born of the spirit to walk in the spirit. And so, well, what does it mean to walk in the spirit? And what we try to do is emphasize the relational dynamic of, uh, of spirit-filled living. And what it is to have a life guided by the spirit. How do we practice conversational prayer?

How do we learn to, to discern the spirit? Holy spirit's work in our lives. And one of those is scripture. Since he ultimately, obviously, is the inspirer of a, of an inherent scripture. We, uh, we, you've gotta know your Bible and you've got to. Interact with the Bible. And one of the things you know, well as a, you know, seminary educated guy is that [00:12:00] everybody comes to the Bible with a filter.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

Marcus Warner: uh, one of the ways that our inter interaction with the Holy Spirit connects to scripture is that he can help us get through some of those filters to see the things that we're supposed to see. Uh. You know, if I come with an enlightenment filter, I see one thing. If I come with a modernist filter, I see one thing.

If I come with a postmodern filter, I'll see, you know, we all have these filters and so it's important that spirit and scripture go together. And then our, the H is heart focused community, and that's really especially the focus on attachment and the idea that if I'm in shallow community, I'm probably not gonna grow much.

If I'm isolated and not in community, probably not gonna grow much. If I'm in toxic community, it's probably gonna sabotage my growth. But if I'm in healthy community with healthy attachments, we're gonna be helping each other with our freedom issues. We're gonna be calling out each other's identity.

We're gonna be practicing walking in the spirit and studying scripture [00:13:00] together. And all of that will naturally lead to mission because if you are growing and you are walking in the spirit. The spirit's gonna lead you into ways that have impact in the world. And uh, it just is a total difference between getting your identity from your ministry and doing ministry because of your identity and because of the other things that follow.

So that's the fish model in a nutshell. It's try to say, you know, the gospel says you're in a new family, and we do these things as a family and not just as individuals. And, uh, what would it look like to really dive into these four core foundations? So. It is in a.

Geoff Holsclaw: that was great. So as a review, so the F is for freedom, I is for identity. The S is the walk in the spirit, and then the H is the heart focus community. Um, yeah, all those things are so important. We could dive into those, uh, so much. 

Integrating Brain Science and Theology

Geoff Holsclaw: Um, as part of that, I wanna circle back then, like you said, well we, you know, this is a biblical model and you bring the brain [00:14:00] science in.

Uh, as part of that, could you explain that dynamic? Uh, 'cause I think that's really important. I think sometimes in these conversations that gets, um, not among like you or, uh, life model and Jim Weiler, but then other times it does feel like maybe the brain science is overwhelming, the theology or something like that.

Could

Marcus Warner: Yeah, well, I, so what we found, first of all is, uh. I people feel like they've heard the Bible so much. They want the brain science. And so what happens if brain science is new and brain science is trendy and it's less understood? So most of us people are asking people like Jim and me to explain the brain science.

They're asking people like you, would you explain the brain science too? ' cause they feel like they've got a thousand outlet outlets to understand the Bible, but they don't have that many. And so what it can do is it can skew that a little bit. It's sort of like. With me. I grew up in a doing spiritual warfare ministry.

Still do, we still train people in spiritual warfare ministry, but because of that, people tend to [00:15:00] ask me mostly about spiritual warfare for most of my ministry, even though that's not the focus of everything that I do, because there aren't that many people. You can ask those questions of, uh, it's, uh, it. That's all they wanna talk to you about. And then you get accused of being unbalanced, and that's, that's all you're focused on. But really it's just that's what people are, are, are wanting to know and you're one of the few people who can explain it and so it becomes a little more dominant in what you're doing.

For me, I would say that the role that the brain science has played is at the level of filter, and that is what I realized was when I am studying the Bible. Um, with a volunteer perspective, I automatically read into it. Cho, uh, reason and choice and, uh, I sort of omitted and just glossed over attachment. I just didn't see that it was there because my filter was blocking it out.

And so what the brain science has [00:16:00] done for me is, is it brought, it has kind of adjusted the, the lenses a little bit. So I'm like, oh my word. It's everywhere. And then before I, but before I knew to look for it, I didn't see it because I had a different philosophical filter that was actually making me see reason and choice everywhere and, uh, blinding me to the role of attachment.

And so I say that's the first role that it's had, has been changing my filter for studying the text. Um, beyond that, it has just shined a light on. What's been missing in our transformation models of how people change. And so if you believe in volunteerism, then you're thinking how people change is you tell 'em the truth and they make a choice.

And if that doesn't work, you just ramp up the accountability and uh, and so accountability, while it works for some things, can also create a lot of fear and shame. And now you're just reinforcing fear and shame in people's [00:17:00] lives because. Um, so that's the other, I would say main thing that the, uh, brain science has done for me is helped me to understand the role of attachment and the importance of attachment and maturity and how maturity develops, uh, and understanding the transformation process of how people change.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's so important that, uh, you know. God theology, the Bible, uh, how God has revealed, how we, you know, work is first and then, you know, but that there is, you know, not to get too into the, the, the hermeneutics, right? But we all bring a bias as we read scripture, right? And so, um, the best of the brain science helps us be less, too much left brained helps us become.

Integrated because you also, and you, you didn't bring this up, you were bringing up attachment, but just how much the body's involved in the Old Testament, new Testament and how God's at work in the world. And you know, [00:18:00] our physical bodies are not these things that are just kinda left over or held to the side.

And so, uh, I just, I think, and for me it's just been very confirming like. You, you learn something in New brain science and you read the Psalms and you're like, well, the Psalms already knew this. And it is just like, there's this kind of interactive kind of play. So, um, well let you brought up, uh, spiritual warfare.

Spiritual Warfare and Emotional Health

Geoff Holsclaw: So maybe this is like a test case then. How do, how do you bring, you know, this idea of spiritual warfare in with, uh. Like findings in brain science. How do we know when, you know, I was talking with, uh, Carl Layman a bit ago, and he is like, well, you never want to cast out a wounded part of yourself. Uh, or you know, if you're in a parts or IFS or whatever, right?

But then, you know, how do, how do we, how do we, how do you kind of hold those things together?

Marcus Warner: Yeah, so that's a, that's a good question. So we do, uh,

Geoff Holsclaw: you only get three minutes, maybe three and a half. I know you have a whole course on

Marcus Warner: Yeah, so the um, what I look at it is that there are three main physical engines that drive our [00:19:00] emotions. It is our body. If something's off of the body affects the emotions, something's off of our emotions that affects our body, right? Um, our beliefs, and that's like a two-way street. And then our bonding or our attachment, those are like the three main engines that drive our emotions.

And the wicked spirits can affect all three engines. So we see in the scripture they can affect our bodies. You know, half of the miracles Jesus performed, I think in the gospel of Mark. He, uh, healed people by casting out a demon. So we know they can affect our bodies. Uh, he's the father of lies, so we know he is affecting our beliefs.

And, uh, if you look at the works of the, of the flesh and Galatians, half of those have to do with attachment problems. It's like, I'm not bonding to my community. Well, uh, you know, there's factions to divisions and, and all the rest. And so we know that he attacks our attachments and that he is, um, one who gives us spirit of fear and outta spirit of joy.

And so he wants to have beer based attachments. And so what we see is that spiritual warfare, interve [00:20:00] interacts quite regularly and, uh, routinely with the three engines that most drive our emotions and the way that we live. And so. What we find is that there's often a demonic component to things, and there are, as we like to say, if you have a spiritual warfare problem, only a spiritual warfare solution will work.

Uh, if you don't have a spiritual warfare problem, no amount of spiritual warfare is gonna fix it. Right? And so part of the idea of identifying these, these different engines is, is that they, they each call for a different strategy. And so you kind of gotta know what you're, um, what you're going after. So I would say that, uh, demons are like sharks.

They see where you're weak and they attack. You know, or they're like any other military force, they're gonna probe you for weaknesses and attacks. So if you grew up in a family where you've got a lot of dysfunctional attachment issues, they're gonna attack and they're going to try to make that [00:21:00] worse. If you've got, uh, severe childhood trauma and you have dissociation and you have parts, right, they're going to, uh, try to use that to their best advantage.

And so they interact with these things. There's, so I, I tend to find that there's a component of it that needs to be resolved through spiritual warfare ministry. Um, but uh, that doesn't mean that it is the only thing going on in the issues that people are facing.

Geoff Holsclaw: Right. And I love that kind of integrated stance, you know, 'cause you can get to kind of, you, you get the same answer. Uh, from charismatics and from Cessationists, uh, which is something like everything is a demon problem. That'd be like the charismatic and so, or, or everything is a, an outright sin problem of the will, uh, which you get, uh, sometimes.

And so, um, if we could just deal with those things, then there would be transformation, breakthrough. Then you get the other side, which is something, you [00:22:00] know, the very far. Kind of more therapeutic side, which is, well, everything is just like a mental disorder or an attachment wound. And if we could just kind of dig those up, um, and nobody's at fault and we don't, you know, people feel bad if we call it sin, so we won't, right?

And they, they go too far that other way. So I love kind of the perspective you're bringing, uh, that you know, well, you can kind of hold all these things together because we're these integrated people. A lot's going on.

Marcus Warner: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: So, uh, for those who are interested more in that, where, uh, they talk about like the body, the beliefs and bondings, uh, that's in your, the breakthrough book.

So I'll put that in the show notes, uh, for sure to kind of look at. Well, can we talk a little bit, uh, about that second point? 

Identity in Christ

Geoff Holsclaw: 'cause I think that's so, so, uh, key, uh, in your fish model, which is identity in Christ, what are the different layers? But this will probably take the rest of our time. What are the different layers then in growing in our identity, uh, with Christ?

Marcus Warner: So we, uh, talk about identity in two, two, uh, two branches, and [00:23:00] there is my, uh, creation identity and my covenant identity. And so my creation identity is who God made me as an individual to be and how that I. Develops and how that, uh, comes together. So the idea is that God has given me an identity. He had me in his heart, in his mind, before the foundation of the world, right?

He knew me already. I was for noon. And so part of that foreknowledge is I have to have an identity, right? That, that God has already in his heart, um, assigned to me. And so I have a creation identity that is uniquely me. And that has to develop through life. And then I have a covenant identity. And so like the most common covenant in America is the marriage covenant.

And you think about how getting married, like, I got a wedding ring here. So how we, how it changes my identity. I went from being a single young man to a married young man, right? That's a significant change of identity. If I, as a married young man continue [00:24:00] to live like a single young man, we're gonna have problems.

But, but now my identity has become the foundation for a new, whole new way to live. And now I need to grow. That identity is complete on the day I entered into the covenant, but now I gotta learn. To fully appreciate and embrace all that is in there. So our covenant identity with Christ is kind of what Neil Anderson is focused on.

If you're familiar with, you know, his work and victory over the darkness and identity in Christ. My father worked, uh, with Neil for 20 I. 20, 25 years. Uh, he was the international director for Freedom in Christ, and before that, he taught at Trinity. So if you're there in the eighties, he was the director of the professional doctoral programs at Trinity.

So the uh, um, and he was really big on the covenant identity part. What the brain science has helped me with is kind of that creation side of it and also an understanding of how, how the brain. [00:25:00] Um, learns identity and develops and grows identity, um, and beginning as with the idea that there is a specific part of the brain that can be thought of as the identity center and this part of the brain.

Is largely undeveloped at birth, which doesn't mean I have no identity, right? God still has an identity for me. You know, in, in, in his mind, in his heart, he knows who I am. I'm gonna grow into that identity. I'm, and to the extent that I don't grow into that identity, um, there is something that needs healed and something that needs the help.

And then from that, I go into, uh. Because this part of the brain so largely undeveloped, uh, it is now through relational interaction and all the rest that I begin to, to develop a healthy brain that can stay who I am under stress and not turn into a different person. And so the way I learn it, uh, is [00:26:00] that as a, as an infant, I turn into a different person with every emotion I feel.

And if, if I don't develop the skills and habits of maturity, I will continue to do that for the rest of my life. In the same way that every infant is basically a born predator. Every infant is basically a born narcissist. You know, we're all born with borderline personality. At some extent, we, and if we don't mature, those things don't change. So, um, I think that what I find interesting is that identity maturity are so directly connected that I have to mature in my ability to live out of that identity and I have to mature in my ability to, uh, maintain that identity, um, under duress and under stress.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm. I think that that is, uh, when I first came across that definition of Ma Christian maturity is learning to act like yourself in every circumstance. That was just like. [00:27:00] I don't know if I said it exactly the way you say it, but you know, that was so powerful to be like, oh yeah. And that's where the right brain, left brain, and the discipleship, you know, 'cause we all at, at some point, if you've been in the church long enough, you know the right answers to the right questions.

Well, I should act like this when blah, blah, blah. Or I should love my enemies or I, right. We have these answers. But then they're not our spontaneous behavior, then we start acting like something else. Uh, so how do we get to the place of learning to act like that identity? Like, like you said, like a husband, um, even though your old impulses might draw you away from that.

Right. And so certainly choices and knowledge have something to do with it, but it's that care. It's, uh, I was gonna say character, but that's kind of the old, and it's the right word, but it's kind of overused, right? It's that bond, it's that attachment bond, which then informs our character. Is that right?

Marcus Warner: Yeah, you can't separate maturity in character. They, uh, because part of my identity is my value system and, uh, and the value system that spontaneously [00:28:00] comes out is something that I have to develop. And so the idea here is that, you know, in our book, rare Leadership. Um, Jim and I talk about fast track and slow track, and the idea that there's a fast track in your brain, which is dominantly on the right side, but not exclusively, and that that track, um, processes the data of life first, I.

And faster than the slow track. And so the problem has been that most of our discipleship has focused on the slow track, and most of our discipleship has been trying to train the skills and the habits on the slow track side of it, but it doesn't touch the fast track side. Now, the fast track is primarily the attachment engine, right?

And so the idea is by the time the fast track gives the slow track something to work with. M my range of decisions have been narrowed [00:29:00] significantly by what I, by what is even passed on from one side to the other. And so, uh, uh, it, it was very helpful to think in those, those terms. When, when I first heard Doc Dr.

Rale say that, uh, uh, maturity was acting like yourself, I thought he was crazy. Because the only people I knew were saying, Hey, I'm just being me. We're being really stupid.

Geoff Holsclaw: Right, right,

Marcus Warner: And I'm like, that's the last thing I want is people thinking, well, I just gotta be myself and to be myself means I get drunk every weekend and I go get, you know, all kinds of crazy stuff.

And, uh, it's because people don't really understand what it means to be them. They, their identity is not formed fully, is not formed the way God intended it to be. Is not anchored in. In what God meant in creation or in covenant. And so they have misidentified themselves and as a result, they're malfunctioning and their, uh, uh, abilities to act like themselves.

And so once I began to understand that it, all of a sudden [00:30:00] it began to click and I'm like, okay, we're not just talking about somebody on a whim saying, well, that's just who I am. You better get used to it. Almost like a threat. It's, uh.

Geoff Holsclaw: which is kind of how it is used these

Marcus Warner: Yeah. Uh, it, it's like, well, maybe that isn't actually who you are. Um, maybe that is who you have learned to be.

Um, and we actually gotta get you more in line, not get you. But we wanted to help you in a sense, be the person you were created to be and the person that, uh, God has always had in his heart for you to be so.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Well, uh, as we kind of finish up, I want to ask about the ministry school that you, uh, have launched in the last couple years. But before that, is there any other, uh, 'cause we've talked about some of the hurdles or some of the barriers, uh, that, that people stumble. Is there anything else that you see going on in the culture, uh, that you feel is like really important that, you know, we need to continue to address or at least think about as [00:31:00] obstacles to kind of this journey toward maturity?

Addressing Cultural Maturity

Marcus Warner: Yeah, I think that, you know, you have to meet people where they are and, uh, um, but we don't need to be and, and help them take their next step. One of the things that I've learned is like, if you are stuck at infant level maturity, you cannot envision what it would look like for you to live. Anything beyond child level maturity.

It's like that's the extent of what you can anticipate. And I think sometimes we're dealing with people who are stuck at infant level maturity, and we're casting adult and parent level maturity as the goal, and they can't, it's overwhelming. It can't even. Fathom that. So we sort of have to meet people where they are and go and, and aim for the next step for them and not, and not try to overwhelm them with, uh, you know, and someday you'll be a parent when they're just trying to learn how to be a, a, a child and get some help handling their own emotions.

Um, and, and [00:32:00] that's one of the things that I see is that, uh, I think it's also what leads to black and whiteness is that, uh, you're either. Mature, you're immature, as if those are the two categories. One, we are all in some level of process and we all, I think, have holes in our maturity at some level that need to get repaired and need to get addressed.

So I think it's always wise to be to, you know, tolerant, loving to people where they are and then to, to keep helping them taking the next step and not always worry about, uh, how big the gap is between that and where they really ought to be at this stage in their life. So that's kind of how I try to address it.

Um, and culture wide, I think that we have a maturity crisis, uh, in which I think the vast majority of of people that we meet have never retained adult level maturity. And as a result, uh, um, [00:33:00] they need a different approach than we have traditionally taken to try to help them grow.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm. Yeah. And that sounds, and I know your heart isn't behind this, it sounds judgmental in one sense, to say that about our culture is like people misidentify their own maturity level and that they're, but I, but I do think that there's, there's something to that, and part of that is just because our whole culture's kind of gotten rid of this idea of.

Maturing and progressing and, you know, taking your time and kind of growing. It's kind of like we just,

Marcus Warner: Well, and I'm not saying that this is millennials or Gen Z or anything like that. It's like it, some of the boomers like me, were like, we're, we all have, uh, the, uh, I think that the impact of the trauma of the depression in World War II and all of that changed a lot of things. And, uh, we lost a lot of things that had been around, um.

Society for a long time. And as a result, uh, people haven't been [00:34:00] sure what's missing and, and how to develop it. And the result has been, I think the typical family has an an emotional infant, married to an emotional child trying to raise kids. And so you end up with, uh. Perpetuating problem generation after generation because No, and that's why I appreciate the brain science and appreciate the, uh, maturity models that grow out of it and to help identify what is missing and how we can address those things.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Great. 

Deeper Walk School of Ministry

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, a couple just to finish off then, a couple years ago, uh, I believe you launched a school of ministry. Could you just tell us a little bit about what that is and some of the things that you're spinning out, uh, in the

Marcus Warner: So the Deeper Walk School of Ministry focuses on certifying people to do prayer ministry. So we train people in the foundations of discipleship and then, uh, teach them how to do spiritual warfare ministry and how to do, um, prayer for emotional healing with people. And, uh, by the time they go through, it's a supervised model where [00:35:00] you, you practice, you get supervision, you go through it.

We don't let just anybody in here. So it's like this isn't a place to come get therapy. This is a place to, uh, to, for, for folks who are called to be people helpers and go out there and do that. We are then adding, uh, we've got a course on complex trauma. We're adding another, uh, course, hopefully in May for, for leaders who want to introduce.

Um, our approach to discipleship into their local church. We're offering a six. We'll be offering a six week class, uh, hopefully starting in May. That's the plan. And, uh, that is, we're calling it a bootcamp, like, just to get started on how do I bring this into my church and, uh. What are the steps involved and how does that work exactly.

And so we wanna help people with that. And then we'll have some coaches available who can, or consultants, whatever you wanna call 'em, who can kind of help, uh, uh, walk people through that. But it's great school. We've had over a hundred people graduate. In fact, we are currently, um, I. Um, our [00:36:00] system is currently, uh, being taught over in Europe and will be used in training chaplains in the military, uh, over there, especially related to the, uh, Russia, Ukraine conflict.

So, um, uh, it's a, uh, well established model that people are recognizing and it's beginning to multiply.

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, that's fantastic. 

Conclusion and Resources

Geoff Holsclaw: Well then where can people find out more about, uh, what you're doing, a deeper walk?

Marcus Warner: Yeah, deeper walk.com is pretty simple. Deeper walk.com and, uh, you'll find again, you come there and browse there. We have so many topics and so many, everything from marriage and parenting to uh. Uh, emotional healing and spiritual warfare to discipleship. The core of what we do, we're a discipleship ministry and we wanna help people identify and overcome the obstacles to a deeper walk.

And that is what are the things getting in the way of a deeper walk in your life? Let's try to identify those things and, and, uh, learn how to overcome them. And, uh, so again, deeper rock.com.

Geoff Holsclaw: [00:37:00] Great. And you have a podcast, you have

Marcus Warner: I do, yeah. My, my daughter and I do a podcast together. That's a lot of fun.

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, good. And uh, the books that we, uh, mentioned, uh, on this episode, those will be in the show notes as well as the link to deeper walk. Well, thank you so much Dr. Warner for uh, taking a little time and, uh, being with us today. I.

Marcus Warner: I appreciate the invitation. It's great to to do this together.