Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

121 Evolving Narcissism, Attacks on Empathy, and Raising Up Resilient Churches (with Dr. Chuck DeGroat)

• Season 7 • Episode 121

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Is society producing more narcissists, or producing more people susceptible to abuse by narcissists? How has narcissism evolved in our internet age?

In this episode, we explore the evolving nature of narcissism in the internet age and its impact on church communities. We discuss the shift from authority-based to algorithm-based influence, the rise of performative narcissism, and the attack on empathy.

Our guest is Dr. Chuck DeGroat, the Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality and Executive Director of the Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program at Western Theological Seminary, Holland, MI.  He is also a licensed and practicing therapist, a spiritual director, author of five books, his newest book, Healing What’s Within. He also wrote When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse.


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Introduction and Opening Questions

 

Geoff Holsclaw: Is society producing more narcissists? Or are more people susceptible to the abuse of narcissism? How has narcissism evolved in our internet age? What is going on here and what can the church do about it? This is the Attaching To God Podcast. Welcome back. My name is Geoff Holsclaw and we're, uh, exploring a neuroscience informed spiritual formation.

And today we have back with us. 

Guest Introduction: Dr. Chuck DeGroat

Geoff Holsclaw: Dr. Chuck DeGroat, thank you for being with us. Let me do the introduction before you chime in. He is the Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality and the executive director of the Clinical Mental Health Counseling program at Western Theological Seminary, which is in Holland, Michigan.

He's a licensed and practicing therapist, [00:01:00] spiritual director, and author of a bunch of great books. We interviewed him about his newest one, healing Within, but today we're gonna kind of revisit an older work, which is called When Narcissism comes to the. Comes to church, healing your community from emotional and spiritual abuse.

Chuck, thanks for being with us today.

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah, you're welcome.

Exploring Narcissism in Culture and Church

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, I know I threw something out online, which was basically that question that I opened with, which was something like, is our culture producing more narcissists or are we producing more people susceptible? I. To being harmed by narcissists. And then I got a bunch of comments and then you jumped on and said, we should do a podcast about that.

Of which I will always say, okay, so here we are. So we're doing a podcast about it. And you've kind of been, you're, you're starting some, a new book project I think, or some other new projects and you've been revisiting your old work as well as other things. And so you've kind of been putting some thoughts in order.

But before we go down, you know, this is. [00:02:00] 

Hopeful Developments in Addressing Narcissism

Geoff Holsclaw: We're recording this just a couple days after Easter, so we have to start with the hopeful, joyous resurrection movement. So before we get into the, the what's going on still problem, let's talk about some hopeful developments. What are some of the hopeful developments maybe in the last five, six years, um, that you see in this conversation about narcissism?

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah. I mean, I, I think so often when this comes up, uh, it just feels heavy, right? And people do, I, I think, experience, perhaps those of us who talk about these things as, as maybe critics of. Of the church. But, um, I'm always really eager to tell hopeful stories, uh, not just, not just, uh, of stories of particular people who I've worked with who've done.

Really good work. But, uh, I, I think larger stories of how, uh, for instance, denominations and, and networks have engaged me and others, um, in [00:03:00] trainings, conversations around these things around awareness and accountability. I think the, the number of folks engaged in this area, the number of resources coming out has only grown.

Um, the number of pastors and therapists who are much more attuned, uh, to this conversation and who will write to me and maybe write to you and others asking how they might, uh, grow in character and show up with more humility in their work in the church. Uh, those are all good conversations. I've had good conversations with church planning networks who are rethinking models of training and preparation and, and, um.

And, uh, assessment of church planters. And, uh, tho those are really helpful because I think by and large the kinds of assessments that we've done of church planters have, uh, contributed to, to, uh, uh, well, we've ma made, bred some narcissists for church planting along the [00:04:00] way. Um, and so. I, I think, uh, the combination of, of the conversations, the trainings, um, uh, the kind of therapeutic work practitioners who are growing in their understanding, uh, pastors who, uh, are, are working toward more, I.

Narcissism aware and trauma aware, uh uh, churches and church staffs. All that is, I think immensely helpful. And I think the fruit of some of the work that's been done over the last number of years with the writing and the resources that have come out.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm. So. 

Challenges in Assessing Narcissism

Geoff Holsclaw: Really quick about the assessment,

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: I get that sometimes the question of like, well, how do we root out these applicants from churches? I was talking with, uh, some Mennonites and they're like, we just, we just promote from within, which can have its own problems too. But there is a sense if a community's known someone for 10 plus years, in a close quarters, you can kind of be like, ah, bad apple.

But [00:05:00] how, so is there, just real briefly, 'cause there's, that could be a whole

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: like, are these assessments catching up? Is there a way for, whether it's mission agencies, church, church planters, church staffing, is there, is this kind of getting into the assessment?

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah. You know, I honestly, I, I, um, I wish I had more time to do a deep dive into newer assessments. I think some of the older assessments that I began working with 20, 25 years ago now, um, practically, I. Well drew narcissism, uh, narcissists into, uh, church planting. I mean, if you would've looked at the assessments and the kinds of questions that they asked, uh, it, it seemed like it, it was priming the pump for narcissists to step into.

Geoff Holsclaw: We're like selecting in narcissists instead of selecting them out.

Chuck DeGroat: I mean, there's, there's a whole, in, in my whole denominational space in particular, a particular region where church planting was happening a lot. I mean, there were, there were a string of, of narcissistic church planters [00:06:00] and, and, uh, a flameouts and I. A really problematic, painful, hurtful, harmful, um, behavior among these pastors.

They'd all gone through similar assessment processes, and that's what really got me thinking about this really more than 20 years ago now. But, uh, I, I just, I, I can't really speak to it because I haven't done a deep dive into new assessments. What I can say is that a, a number of folks from different denominations and networks have.

Been in conversation around this and have said, Hey, we're gonna go back and we're gonna revisit that. I think it's really hard because people often ask me, can you do an assessment and catch, sort of catch a narcissist? And I often say that narcissism evolves. I, I'll do an assessment and I have done assessments on, let's say men in particular who've gone into church planting where they've successfully gone through an assessment process, and I'm talking about using.

Some psychological testing and [00:07:00] narrative-based testing and interviews and things like that. Um, but once they got into ministry, once they gained some power and platform, what ended up happening is they became more and more anxious, more and more self-protective and narcissism sort of evolved in, in the context of ministry.

And so, you know, uh, I, uh, I can't really say that we, we can catch people on the front end because we do see this evolve in the context of, of ministry and when, when, when there's power to protect.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Well at, I know at the end I will. Talk about, well, how do we create kind of communities of resilience, uh, and repair and resistance to narcissists. But, uh, before that, let's go back then. So how did you, let's kind of do just a, a brief backstory then. How did you kind of, you know, end up writing this, uh, book when narcissism comes to church, uh, that goes back to some of your life as well as studying, like you said, 20 years ago.

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah, I mean, it goes back to really the [00:08:00] late 1990s, uh, when I was involved in a couple of different really painful situations, both in my seminary and in a presbytery that I was in and, and uh, and in the church that I was serving in. And I was looking for resources back in the late nineties. In fact, there was a, a Dutch book that was translated on emotional abuse, and I was.

I was doing a lot of work translating, uh, emotional abuse, abuse and the spiritual abuse. There are very few resources back then. Uh, and, and so I was sort of learning this on the fly. I. And, uh, it, it really came through the accumulation of experience being involved in, you know, as a pastor and a therapist back then, working with clients, being involved in church planning, assessment, uh, being asked over time.

I mean, I was young back then, but over time, as I, I grew in this work being asked to, uh, speak more broadly to issues of church health. Uh, which I began doing and then being asked to do some [00:09:00] consulting, uh, which led to some co consulting work that I did about maybe 10, 10 years ago or so. It was in that particular situation that a group of people said, Hey, if there's any way that you can translate some of what you've shared with us into a book, that would be helpful.

And, and my immediate answer was, no. There's no way I'd wanna write a book in the church. And what's funny about it is. Uh, I, I remember talking to a publisher about it, and his eyes got wide open, right? Like, I probably pitched 12 other ideas and he was falling asleep. But then I, I pitched the narcissism

Geoff Holsclaw: Something like wholeheartedness

Chuck DeGroat: I know,

Geoff Holsclaw: and St. Ala, you know, St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross.

Chuck DeGroat: a 16th century woman who's a reformer in the church and he's falling asleep. And then I said, but I could probably, uh, produce a book on narcissism. I know that stuff pretty well. Yeah, let's do that. So that's how it came about. [00:10:00] Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: All right. Well, so you did a lot of work. You wrote that book that came out, did that come out in 2019 or

Chuck DeGroat: Uh, 2020. It came out. It came out literally as, as shutdowns were happening, it came out as Amazon was shutting down their book sales to prioritize other stuff, uh, during COVID. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, so in those even short five years, you've kind of noticed, um, an evolution of some of these things and so you were just kind of pondering them, uh, and writing those. So I just, you came up I think with five. So let's kind of go through some of those and that'll help kind of fill out this idea of, well, what is narcissism?

How does that function? 'cause I know some people are like, that's what I'm here for. 

The Evolution of Narcissism: Authority to Algorithm

Geoff Holsclaw: So, uh, the first one you talk about how narcissism has shifted a little bit from author being authority based to. Algorithm based. What do you like? What have you been seeing? What do you mean by that?

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah. So what I mean by that is that narcissism, like I think traditionally. Uh, emerged outta places of power and authority, um, within institutions, among people with titles and roles and [00:11:00] degrees and more. And, and now I think part of the shift is that there's an assumed. Authority that comes with platform.

Uh, so if you, for instance, if you're on Instagram and you've got 50,000 followers and you're talking about neuroscience, for instance, right? You may not have a degree in neuroscience. Uh, the background in it, um. But, uh, if you're talking about it, there's sort of this assumption that, uh, because people follow you, you are an, an authority on this.

And I think what's happening there is that, well, positively, I mean, more and more people are having a voice that wouldn't have had a voice. So, so there's something beautiful and helpful about that. Uh, not just traditional figures of authority, but um, but others who do have something worthwhile to share.

I think negatively there is this sense that, you know, if a therapist has 50,000 followers, uh, she must know what she's talking [00:12:00] about. Or, um, if a pastor has a big platform. Uh, that's gotta be someone that I can trust and I, I, I just think that's a problem. Uh, and, and so, uh, part of what, this is part of what's inspired writing on character formation, right?

Because I, I do think we'll talk about this in a moment as we get to the second piece of this too, the second evolution of narcissism. Um, but I do think that the shift to. Platform and visibility, uh, and rhetorical dominance, uh, as the new markers of authority sort of eclipse real wisdom and character that are embodied in relationship as we know from a sort of a neuroscientific point of view.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm. Yeah. So that, and it feels like then in this moment, and this is not that new, um, but with the internet, with social media [00:13:00] and, uh, you know, TikTok or all these things, uh, Instagram, that there is. An ability to have a platform, uh, that doesn't have just about any oversight, any like embodied relational connections.

Maybe, uh, you can create, uh, a board who you're accountable to, kind of, right? But you have no, like local church. You don't have the old lady who's always grumpy at your sermon. You don't have, like the guy that's always very concerned about the maintenance of the building, um, which are, you know. There. It, it's just a different reality.

And so it, and it seems, and going into the character question, it just seems like people, like I just, I've heard stories of people, you know, who can be, uh, you know, basically their, their influencers, entertainers who are kind of speaking about church hurt or something like that, who can grow and major influence, get a bunch of funding, but.

There's very little accountability. There's very little, um, and then character and so yeah, it's just so, it's a whole new, it's just like gasoline [00:14:00] for a narcissist. Is that right?

Chuck DeGroat: I, I think so. Yeah, I think so. And it's, um, I mean, I, I think in, in some cases, uh, it starts out well intentioned. Um, but I, I think just in the tra, just as in the case of traditional narcissism, you know, you think of a pastor who. Grows in his platform, the church gets bigger and bigger. Pastor who becomes more and more anxious and thus more and more self-protective.

So, such, such is a case with, with growth in numbers on platforms as well. Right. And uh, and, and it's, it's fascinating to me, you know, how many people talk, uh, as experts on particular things or maybe even call themselves experts, um, or, or who are able to curate, you know, platforms that are really stylish.

Uh, or writings with a kind of rhetorical punch, uh, but, but without much training. Um, uh, and, and how, how there is this just default [00:15:00] sense that if you have 25, 50,000 files, 75,000 followers, you just must know what you're talking about. If you write a bestselling book, you must know what you're talking about.

And so that's just something for us to pay attention to. We have to ask ourselves, who do I trust? Um, how might I, I better steward my sense of trust so that I can be formed? Well, I mean, I think about my early formation. It was just a few people. Um, and now, and now, you know, we're immersed. We wake up every morning, we open ourselves into this portal of, of, you know, we might scroll through a hundred different people with a hundred different ideas.

We're pulled in all these different directions. We're being formed in particular ways, even in and through our. Engagement with social media, so we just have to ask some, some pointed questions of ourselves.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Well, I think, um, I think for all of us who are listening or watching this who are part of the, the scrolling classes, [00:16:00] you know, asking ourselves, well, who. Who do we receive like spiritual influence from? Uh, and, and why is it coming primarily through our phone? And is that a good

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: And being a little bit more discerning, uh, rather than someone that someone else shared who said, this is good, who has a big following.

Um, because, and it, it's easy to just look at the following, look at the impact, uh, and assume that there's character or real. Wisdom behind those things when there's not. I will just throw out a caveat that this is not just a church problem. That it's a, if you follow, like, uh, wellness experts, dare I say, even therapists who, you know, become big and blow up, who are young, who just have a good little shtick.

You are like, you know, we don't know what their training is like or what their home life is like and uh, all this stuff. Alright, so the next one that you talk about. 

Performative Narcissism and Social Media

Geoff Holsclaw: Is a move from like a hidden nar narcissism to a performative narcissism. So what is that about?

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah, I mean, I think that's pretty [00:17:00] closely related. Um, again, I, I mean, I think traditional narcissism operated a bit more behind the scenes, uh, looked a little bit more like ladder climbing and power grabbing an institutional building. I. Um, but now again, in our social media age, we're rewarded for a kind of per what I call performative, uh, narcissism.

And, and I talked a little bit about this and when narcissism comes to church, uh, in the language of vulnerability, not vulnerability, but faux, FAUX, vulnerability, um, leaders and influencers strategically sharing, uh, personal struggles to appear humble. While still maintaining control of the narrative. And so what I discovered over the course of many years of doing this was that, you know, 20 years ago, you know, pastors, uh, might not have engaged the language of therapy or humility in the same ways that they do now.

I. Um, but they've taken to these things and they'll show up and they'll have the right language. I, I've [00:18:00] consulted on any number of different, um, church abuse cases where, uh, the pastor will say all the right words, and in fact he'll say, well, I know my Enneagram and I've been to my therapist and I, you know, I've done this deep work in my life and I've looked at my shadows.

Um, and yet fairly quickly in my work, I'll realize that it's pretty empty. It's pretty vacuous. And, and so we're seeing this rise of, of this kind of performative narcissism. Um, and, and the performance is, is happening in any number of different areas. I mean, I think it looks like. Um, performative truth telling and performative vulnerability and performative empathy at times, and performative expertise and performative trauma awareness, as you just hinted at, and performative outrage.

Like we have to be outraged that the thing every day we have to wake up and there's this new thing. And if we're not properly outraged, you know, uh, which, which really, uh, discounts real, honest, [00:19:00] authentic. Lament, you know, that might, um, emerge as we do our own work. Um. Performative humility, all of these different things.

And so, um, I do think, uh, again, this, this, this is leading me to do this deeper work on character formation. Um, because I, I, I, I do think that, uh. Social media forms us in particular ways, and even our perhaps good desire to come alongside to be an ally to someone who's going through something can lead to us.

I, I put this out there on social media, in fact, just to see what people would say and people said they experience. Performative allyship as well. You know, people just sort of going through the motions because they feel like they have to. And of course, as you and I know from a neuroscience point of view, a lot of this is motivated by anxiety.

We're simply. We're so simply operating out of this sort of sympathetic activation in these spaces. [00:20:00] And so we, in our anxiety, we feel like we have to come along, so we feel like we have to say something. We feel like we have to post, we feel like we need to speak authoritatively on something, and it's not born out of slow, deliberate wise, measured, discerning, um, work thought.

Mm-hmm.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. So, and I think that, like you said, that goes with the first one. It sounds like that the shift where if before, uh, a narcissist was, uh, authority based, um, then as long as they kept up the masquerade or had the mask of an effective, powerful, decisive leader, um, and the organization was growing, then, you know.

If they wouldn't be found out or they could keep everything under wraps, but now it sounds like there's this, this move where it's um. Put like, uh, putting on the mask of social emotional intelligence, like I know you've talked about like, um, how [00:21:00] self-awareness doesn't do the work that it used to. That 20 years ago when you wanted pastors to be self-aware, that usually led to breakthroughs and changes.

And now it just is they're just adopting a certain language, but then the heart work hasn't changed yet, and so they're just kind of taking the new language

Chuck DeGroat: yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: molding another mask, which is, you know, what hypocrisy is. Um, wearing masks.

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah. Yeah. You and I have talked about this probably over breakfast at some point, but I think for a long time, you know, if you, if you were coming up in our era of pastoral life preparation, you know, we were, we were hearing a lot about self-awareness and I think now the conversation is shifting to some degree.

Uh, we're still talking about self-awareness and the, the importance of it, but there has become a sort of faux self-awareness, this full vulnerability that I talk about where people are able to, to, to say, I'm this Enneagram and I go to this therapist. I know these things about my life. Um, that, that masks a deeper dysregulation.

So the [00:22:00] shift is from self-awareness to self-regulation, because. You might know some things about your story. You might know your Ennea Enneagram type. But this performative, uh, uh, acting out on social media and other spaces, uh, reveals a deeper dysregulation, um, and anxiety that's showing up as this, this anxious need to, to have to come alongside others to show that I'm a.

Um, I'm empathetic or to show that I, you know, I'm for you or I'm for this cause or whatever it might be, or I stand for the truth. Um, and it's exhausting. I mean, I think that's what I, that's what I see sometimes when I, you know, I'm much more disciplined and boundary these days when I do go on social media, but I, I often think to myself, this is exhausting.

If you have to keep up with this, my goodness.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, I just saw a comedian who makes a joke about that. Uh, you know, he's like, you know, he's a, I think he is a millennial and he talks about our whole generation. We're [00:23:00] all, we're all anxious. And you'd think that all of us knowing that we're anxious would help out a lot, but. Really, we're just telling each other that we're anxious so that they have to work around my anxiety rather than me working on becoming less anxious.

It's like we don't like, we don't want, like that is kind of a self-awareness that leads to then just. Not a continued path of growth, right? How do we acknowledge and then have compassion? Yeah, I was anxious in the moment. Um, but we can't just keep saying that year after year, moment after moment. Like at some point you have to take responsibility and then say like, I could learn how not to let my anxiety ruin your day, or, you know, the situation.

So.

Chuck DeGroat: alone in these spaces, I mean, I, I think that's the danger, right? Is there, there would be some accountability you would think in the church, you know, or in other spaces. But I often say this, you know, I'm a I, I lead a counseling training program and I will say to our, I.

Therapists in training. It's a very isolating vocation, and it's [00:24:00] very easy because there isn't an accountability, especially if you're in private practice by yourself. Uh, you likely don't have a board, so there's no one looking in. Obviously, there's no one looking in on your sessions, right? Uh, but, but it does lead to a kind of isolation and so we, we just need to be aware again, how we're being formed.

In, in these ways, particularly, I mean, all this happened so fast right now. You and I know a, a lot of this began in the early two thousands. What, when did Facebook emerge? 2005, 2006. But it's been, I got on Twitter, I think in oh 9, 0 8, 0 9, but it's been shaping us for a long time now. Right. So I, I have to sometimes extricate myself from the machine and say, what is this doing to me?

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Oh, for sure. Well, let's, uh, let's keep going then. There's three more. You talk about the shift from apathy in action to now, empathy under attack. 

Empathy Under Attack

Geoff Holsclaw: Uh, what is, what is [00:25:00] going on

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah, I mean, we could spend a long time here too. And I think just briefly, I, folks perhaps who are listening know, maybe other folks don't know that, um, there, uh, for a number of years now have been books written on the, um, the evils of empathy. Empathy as sin, uh, and, uh, it, it is sort of stunning. I think when there was first book that came out, oh goodness, maybe 20 17, 18.

Blanking on the name now, but, um, I, I don't know that, uh, many of us took it seriously, but as it began showing up more and more blogs and among people who call themselves Christians, it dawned on me that there's something going on here. And, and the move for me is apathy and action to empathy under attack, which is to say that for a long time.

What, what I experienced is I was doing this kind of work in the area of abuse and consultation around these things is, is a, is a kind of apathy among those who, uh, were leading from a place of [00:26:00] power and, and, and often abusive. Now, I think what's happened is, is that there, uh, they've sort of switched tactics, you might say, and um, they are taking on empathy.

Um, they're looking at, I, I think many of us who are engaged in, um, and this is, this is sort of a political thing too. It's, it's caught up in, in a sort of conservative perhaps, and I don't love this language. I know you don't either, but, uh, because too often it's just, um, reductionistic but more of a conservative sort of attack on those woke liberals, right, who are just bleeding heart empaths who wanna help everyone.

Um, and, uh, I, I, so I, I'm, I'm finding this really interesting that there, you know, there are a group of people who've sort of gone on the attack against empathy, which we know is core to narcissism, by the way. Right? A lack of empathy is one of the sort of defining characteristics of, of, [00:27:00] uh, narcissism. But as I often say, those of us who teach on empathy often teach that.

Um, empathy at its best, um, is differentiated, which is to say, um, uh, the, this capacity to deeply understand and attune to another person's emotions, uh, requires us to not lose ourself and, um, and, and another's story and another's self, right? And so there are boundaries. Um, we do maintain our emotional regulation in the midst of it.

And so, uh, yeah, yeah, it's complicated.

Geoff Holsclaw: to jump in. I'd almost say. The, the trouble is to go then to attachment language is there's not like a secure attachment empathy that's being practiced. And so you get one group that is like the anxiously attached empathy that is this the all with one another or the, we have to let all the feelings, you know, be validated and affirmed without any kind of.

Judgment or [00:28:00] any kind of criticism or any kind of discernment or something like that, you know? And then the other side is like, against that, oh, that empathy is weak and wishy-washy, nothing gets done. And sometimes life is hard, you know? So then you have the, the avoidant, you know what I call the, the desert empathy, or they're against empathy.

It's just like, that's all, you know, don't, don't let my facts hurt your feelings, kind of people. Uh, and it's just like, well, what we need is like what you said, you know. You know, a self differentiated kind of empathy that is both with and for people. It can be with, with them in their shame or guilt or pain or whatever it is, but then also can be for them in a way that, um, is, is separated from them and maybe is offering them things they don't necessarily want in that moment.

Right. So it's just creative. It's more creative.

Chuck DeGroat: think it's, it's tricky in, in the abuse conversation. I mean, you know how these things sort, sort of shift from one side to the other, right? And I think in the abuse conversation, um, there, there's been this mantra for a number of years, [00:29:00] believe, um, believe the victim, believe the survivor, right?

Believe her story. Um, which which is to say, you know, pastorally as you sit with someone who's sharing. Um, uh, sharing her story of pain. Be with her in that and believe her. But, but, and this is a really big, but because I've done a lot of this work over the years, those of us who do this work are very interested in teasing out the details.

Um, and so it's not about some wishy-washy, you told me what your truth is and I'm just gonna believe your truth. Um. Uh, there, there is this hard work. I mean, I think about the organization, grace, godly res, uh, godly response to abuse and, uh, uh, church environments. I think it is, um, that when they do investigations, they're trying to tease out the details, right?

Um, and understand what really happened. And, um, and there are times, you know, I'm a therapist as [00:30:00] well as I was a pastor for a long time. There are times when I'm working with, uh, folks who share with me their story of harm. And as we tease things out, we realize that it is more nuanced. And I, I do think maybe there is this sense from others that, you know, those of you who do this, you just sort of simply put your rubber stamp and say, um, and you, you divide the world into, um.

The bad people with power and the good people who have been victimized. And it's, it's just not as simple as that. As that for those of us who are, uh, doing the work every day.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm. Well, I want to get to, I want to get to the constructive stuff. So let's just finish off the last two you mentioned. Uh, moving from, uh. Everything you're saying is great. We could talk for hours, right? 

From Anxious to Emboldened Narcissists

Geoff Holsclaw: Uh, from the anxious you, you not a movement from the anxious narcissist to the emboldened narcissist.

Uh, what does that look like?

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah. So I do think that when, [00:31:00] uh, there, there was a season, uh, as, as we begin talking about narcissism in the church and abuse in the church, that, uh, there, there was this shift, um, to. To a growing sense. I think many, many of us had this growing sense that there was, uh, well, a growing sense of accountability within the church.

That those, um, that there were, there were conversations around systems and structures that were harmful, that there was this productive conversation for, for a few years, uh, around the kinds of problems that we were seeing in the church that was leading to some fruit, some of the fruit that I even mentioned at the outset.

Um. Again, I think there's been this pendulum swing, this equal and opposite reaction among some who've doubled down and pushed back. I remember, I, I, I can't tell you how many conversations I've had Geoff, uh, particularly after when narcissism comes to church, came out, uh, with men in ministry, men who look a lot like me.

[00:32:00] Um, I would meet with, uh, senior pastors, uh, church staffs. We would do Zoom conversations and at first there was a bit of a. Curiosity at best, trepidation at worst. There was a little bit of a sense of, I know what's happening culturally and we, we want to do our best to not do those bad things that pastors sometimes do, but you know, it would invariably lead within a a few minutes to, but why are they canceling us?

Why are they going after us? You know? Um, I, I think at that point, that's the anxiety that I'm talking about. I think for a while there, there were, uh, pastors and, uh, churches and I, I think even organizations that were, were feeling, uh, maybe, uh, set back on their heels just a little bit, a little bit defensive.

Now it's become. Uh, they've taken to the offense, and maybe this gets at the empathy conversation as well. Uh, but, uh, what we're seeing is a reassertion of what some believe to be the proper hierarchies [00:33:00] within the church. I think an entrenchment of, of hyper-masculinity, which would be a longer conversation in and of itself.

Um, targeting those on the margins. I think the rhetoric of shame and mockery, I mean, you, you're seeing this, I'm sure, on social media, but we're seeing it. From our president, um, the, the rhetoric of shame and mockery as acceptable and even righteous, you know, um, all, all reveal what I call the vacuous virtues of control, mastery and possession.

That, that, that's the language of Willie James Jennings. Um, uh, a theologian who's done some work on, on these, um, these false virtues, but I think those false virtues go, um, line up very well with the kind of narcissism and abuse cultures that we're seeing in the church. They're invariably cultures of control, mastery and possession, but there's a doubling down on control.

Mastering and [00:34:00] possession. I think there's a larger theological conversation, uh, to have here about the self emptying and powerless way of Jesus. I mean, I think this is where we need to find our way back to the gospels, back to the Beatitudes. I. Um, and talk about the way of Jesus. I mean, I think that the season we're just coming out of Lent Easter, uh, reminds us of the way of Jesus and how we're invited to show up.

It's just stunning to me how many, uh, leaders in the church, uh, you know, ecclesial or otherwise are showing up, uh, by doubling down on power, shame, mockery of others.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, I've seen, um, I saw a couple articles, uh, talking about the shift, uh, in our rhetoric from virtues, virtue signaling almost to vice signaling. Like, let's just show how nasty we are that because our cause is so righteous that, you know, we could just say kind of. You know, what needs to be said or, or, or whatever.

And it just, you know, even if it looks ugly and horrible. [00:35:00] Well, so let's go. The last one you, you talked about, I'll just, I'll just say was from like high bars of accountability to like the heroic comebacks and how, you know, we live in an era often of cheap grace, which goes all the way back to, um, kind of the, the algorithm based kind of narcissism, all those things.

And so. But let's shift then. 

Building Resilient and Healing Churches

Geoff Holsclaw: How do, just really quickly to, to kind of conclude in the last couple minutes, how do we kind of start moving toward churches that can be more resilient against this, or that could be places of healing, um, in, in the midst of these kind of dynamics.

Chuck DeGroat: Well, I mean, I think it starts with Jesus, you know, I think we've sort of.

Geoff Holsclaw: Amen. Amen.

Chuck DeGroat: Find our way back to, um, the way of Jesus live, living, the, the, um, the lowly way of Jesus, the way of, um, the powerless way of Jesus, a self emptying way of Jesus. Um, uh, I'm I. I, I don't, I don't like to [00:36:00] become sort of idealistic and say that, you know, the early church lived this in a way that we don't live it.

But I think there are examples, uh, throughout the Church of women and men who've lived this in a way I. Um, that foregoes the, the way of power and chooses the way of, of weakness, um, the way of humility. Um, uh, I, I often say to my students that, um, in, in Augustine, for instance, the word that you'll hear the most is the word humility.

It's self knowledge leads to humility, not to vulnerability, not to self protection. Right. And so, I'd, I, I, what my wondering is, is how, um. This, this gets to the, the, the conversation on character formation. Um, I, I do think that, uh, to become someone who lives in these kinds of self-protective ways, who, who live in what I call sympathetic storm, um, to become someone like that, well, that, that's an attachment conversation as you well know, right?

Um, that [00:37:00] goes back to an early school of formation, which is to say your family and your early community. So it takes some time for us to become the people who we become. And so I think we need to have a larger conversation, uh, about how we're shaped in the character of, of Jesus. And that's not a, a simple recipe that I can offer, right?

Um, but we need to cultivate communities of humility and resilience. Um, perhaps communities that are more embodied, more relational, where there are these. As you and I talk about sometimes these right brain to right brain connections that allow us to, uh, grow and trust with one another, to speak honestly with one another.

Uh, this can only happen I think, in embodied ways, um, in and through deep connection with one another. And I, I think a lot of what, what social media does mitigates against that. It doesn't allow for that eye to eye, you know, right brain to right brain kind of [00:38:00] contact that we need. Um, we need nervous systems that are regulated, right?

And so for us to, to actually shift from fight, um, or performance, uh, to, uh, honest relationship, uh, requires us to do the inner work that allows us to connect with ourselves, with God and with others. Um, that there's a larger conversation that you and I could have about. Um, how that kind of formation happens inside and outside the church, how it happens in relationships.

Um, but that's, but to me it gets back to the way of Jesus, it gets back to the gospels.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, the, and, and living at the speed of Jesus

Chuck DeGroat: Hmm.

Geoff Holsclaw: uh, in the sense of, you know, taking years to

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: develop, um, his disciples. And I remember I was going through the Ignatian, uh, spiritual exercises several years ago. And, um, you know, you're doing these imaginative readings of [00:39:00] the life of Jesus and you get, you know, to the passion week and all the questions were like, you know, how is Jesus meeting you?

Or how are you participating in Jesus' life? And, and my whole, like, the whole several weeks of it was like, I'm not, but that guy Peter, I really identify with. It was just like all of Peter's, uh, failings, you know. I wouldn't say that like Peter was like a narcissist necessarily, uh, or had a disorganized attachment necessarily.

But it's possible, uh, when you, when you start looking at the ways his, uh, his, the, the extreme movements of faith and lack of faith, um, and his declarations of Jesus, and then rebuking Jesus, and then being called Satan because you know, like all, and then especially the, the Holy Week in the denial. Um. Then just seeing how did Jesus deal with Peter really?

You know, I think it's kind of a roadmap for like, if we were just kind of a little, both loving but also pretty. [00:40:00] Heavy handed. Jesus didn't pull any punches with Peter, um, but was also like, you know, understanding and welcoming and then obviously the restoration, um, after the resurrection of Peter. Uh, but it seems so often like we're, we're more, um, committed to like productivity over like a peaceful character.

Um, or we're more committed to results over like deep relationships. These are all kind of sys systemic problems in our churches that need to be addressed For

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah. And if we're anxious, we will, we, we, we can and will sometimes fight back. But if we're chronically anxious as I was for a number of years, I tell that story in the previous book, uh, chronically dysregulated, we're not, we're not so aware when we're living out of fight, we're not so aware of our reactive responses online.

And it, they might even feel just righteous, you know? And so, uh, I do wonder. Uh, in this, this, this age in which we're becoming increasingly isolated and lonely, right? How we [00:41:00] have the kinds of conversations like, I'd hope Geoff, because you and I have developed a relationship, that there'd be times when you come to me and say, I don't know that you're showing up very well these days.

Um, and, and some of what you're posting or how you're reacting, I, we've gotta cultivate those kinds of conversations, those honest, vulnerable, authentic conversations.

Geoff Holsclaw: Right, right.

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. So can we. Keep, uh, keep the relationships honest, truthful, and humble, uh, is key. Well, we did, obviously did not solve the narcissism problem in the church or beyond in these 40 minutes of a podcast, but thank you for just continuing to think about this with us, um, and with me and, uh, I'm sure we'll keep, uh,

Chuck DeGroat: we'll do it.

Geoff Holsclaw: talking about and exploring.

Yeah. Yeah. For sure, for sure. Well, uh, for those who don't know your work or where you're based out of, can you just tell people how they can keep track of you?

Chuck DeGroat: I teach it.

Geoff Holsclaw: I believe.

Chuck DeGroat: Yeah. Substack, I teach at Western Theological Seminary. The [00:42:00] Substack is called Sit With Chuck. Um, but my website is chuck to growth.net and, uh, not hard to find.

Geoff Holsclaw: alright, those will be in the show notes. Well, thank you so much. Uh, and I think, I think we have a breakfast that's due soon.

Chuck DeGroat: Let's do it. See if.