Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

125 A Teachable Spirit Among Strangers and Enemies (with A.J. Swoboda)

• Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw • Season 7 • Episode 125

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Should Christians be teachable, and how can we discipline desire, that’s what we are talking about today, and stories learning to attach more deeply with God. 

In this episode of the Attaching to God podcast, host Geoff Holsclaw welcomes Dr. A.J. Swoboda to discuss the virtue of having a teachable spirit. The conversation explores the challenges of remaining teachable in a culture that often discourages vulnerability and humility.

Dr. A. J. Swoboda is a professor, writer, and pastor. He is the Associate Professor of Bible, theology, and world Christianity at Bushnell University and leads the Doctorate program in Christian Formation and Soul Care at Friends University. He is the author of many books, recently The Gift of Thorns: Jesus, the Flesh, and the War for Our Wants and A Teachable Spirit: The Virtue of Learning from Strangers, Enemies, and Absolutely Anyone.

Dive deeper in our new book, Landscapes of the Soul: How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment Can Move You into Confident Faith, Courage, and Connection, and learn about our trainings and other resources at embodiedfaith.life.

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Introduction: Should Christians Be Teachable?


Geoff Holsclaw: Should Christians be teachable? Question mark. And how can. How can we learn to discipline our desires and all these other things? That is what we're talking about today, as well as hearing some stories about becoming more deeply attached with God. Welcome back to the Attaching to God podcast.

Meet Dr. AJ Swoboda

Geoff Holsclaw: Today we have Dr. AJ Swoboda. He's a professor, writer, and pastor. He is a professor. This is the official title. Associate Professor of Bible, theology and world Christianity at Bushnell University. He also leads a doctoral program in Christian Formation and Soul Care at Friends University, which news flash,.

Cyd also teaches that, but she does a master's class, whereas you, AJ, are doing the doctoral program. He has [00:01:00] written many books. Recently he's written one called The Gift of Thorns, Jesus, the Flesh and the War for our wants. I love that war for our wants but most recently, and we're gonna touch on near the end, is his most recent book called A Teachable Spirit, the Virtue of Learning from Strangers, Enemies, and Absolutely Anyone because did you know aj, that being a know-it-all is not a Fruit of the spirit?

A. J. Swoboda: I've heard this. In fact, I've put

Geoff Holsclaw: heard that. Have you said that to your own child? In fact,

A. J. Swoboda: first of all, can I just say Geoff on the, it's a delight to be attached to you on the Attaching to God podcast 'cause it's so good to see you. That's

Geoff Holsclaw: great to see you. I don't know why we haven't done this so much sooner. Like I run a whole podcast. Why can't I have my friends on?

A. J. Swoboda: that's true. This beard that you're sporting though is beatific. I'm digging it all, bro.

Geoff Holsclaw: Excellent. Can I be on my, like a Dr. Claw icon with a giant beard and a robe or something for those of you not [00:02:00] watching on on YouTube, I've been growing my beard now.

A. J. Swoboda: with some grays. We both got some grays going on. Oh yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: I know. We got to know each other when we were young and now not as young. Before we get into some of your kind of like spiritual backstory, how did you, I love asking people, how'd you get into what you're doing?

You were a pastor for many years as well as a professor. You're primarily a professor now. How did you stumble, get called to get forced into what you do?

A. J. Swoboda: Yeah. It's been a, yeah, I mean it to be to be candid. It's, some of it is a bit of a surprise. I can't tell you that I would've imagined. When I was sitting in my high school math class, at 16 years old I can't imagine that I would've ever thought my life would be where it is now.

but I, yeah, I mean in a lot of respects, the journey of pastoring for years and then and then teaching and then the writing life and being an academic and running a doctorate ministry program and doing a lot of. A lot of [00:03:00] pastoral work with people.

Man it's come and gone. And through some great and horrible seasons all at the same time, I, I yeah, I was just actually just lecturing on Abraham's journey, how he, when he was called from er to go to the promised Land. When you follow his path of his journey the first path, part of the path from er.

To down, down to Canaan, takes 'em along this river and rivers are awesome because you can fish and you don't have to fight on both Cydes, and it provides protection and water and all this stuff so that, like the first half is along the river, but then the second half of the journey is like through this desert, there's no water and there's no predictability and there's no, and yet, he's following God the whole way.

Whether it's along the river or through the desert. And there have been seasons of life that Geoff have felt like we're walking the river. It's clear we know what God's doing. There's good food, feel protected, and then seasons that walk, feel like you're walking through the desert and yet the Lord is the Lord of both the desert and the river.

He takes you through both. Yeah [00:04:00] I, it really is, my journey is as much a surprise to me as it is to. Anybody else? I would've never imagined doing what I do now, but the Lord of Providence is, the Lord that takes us off where we don't, where we don't know or want to go to.

I've only had one time in my life, a couple, sorry, mul. I've had a couple of times where there have been prophetic Holy Spirit, anointed words that were spoken over me that I knew in the moment Geoff were from God. That didn't take reflection. I just knew it. And one of them was. The season is the story in John 21 where Jesus tells Peter after his restoration, where Jesus says to him when you were younger, you went where you wanted to go, but when you're older, someone else will dress you and you'll go where you don't want to go.

And I remember at one point reading, Henry Nowan did a whole thing on how that's the inversion. That's the inversion of the American dream. Where in the American dream, when you're young, you don't do what you want, but when you retire, you do everything you want, but the kingdom of God is. It's often the opposite where you start with freedom and you move to [00:05:00] more and more faithfulness to what God's called you to do.

And I, I can't say necessarily that I am increasingly doing all the stuff that I want to do, Geoff , but I'm increasingly moving into the things that God has designed me to do and in our sovereign places. But they're not always places I want to go for sure.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I a couple things came to mind when you talked about Abraham's journey from the river in the wilderness in the desert. We in our youth group, we actually. Have our kids do emotional check-ins and we ask that two thing, when have you had river moments and when have you had a wilderness moment?

Because we want to train them from the very beginning that God's in both moments rather than what I think a low lying American prosperity gospel, which is well, god's in the good moments, and then we have to question and wonder and figure out what's wrong because God's not a part of the bad moments.

But. Like you were saying, and with Abraham's journey, God's in all those moments, how long was he since you were, 'cause I don't have it off the top of my head, but like [00:06:00] between that calling and Isaac being born, what's that timeframe? It's so

A. J. Swoboda: You talking about between Abraham's call, Abram's call and Isaac and

Geoff Holsclaw: And the blessing of a son and then Isaac isn't it like 40, 50, like 60 years or something? That's

A. J. Swoboda: Yeah. I, it. Certainly he goes to Harran for a chunk of time, which the, it, I, somebody once told me, I didn't know this, the word harran, which is the middle place between Ur, I promise. Then the word harran means delayed place. It's the place of delay.

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh,

A. J. Swoboda: So he's there for a while and then Harran dies when he's there, which it's the place and it's his or it's it's his his brother passes away when he is there, I think is the either way.

But he's in Irv, he's in Harran for a little bit and then he goes, I don't know, maybe 45, 50 years, right? Maybe 60 years. But that's a long time, man. That's a long time That to, to. To be waiting for what God wants. Yeah. I was just lecturing this morning on Hebrews 11, I'm teaching a Hebrews [00:07:00] class and in Hebrews 11 you've got 16 different people named in the Old Testament who are described as being people of PIs, us of faith.

And it's a, the weirdest list. 'cause there's all these people not mentioned who you'd think should be there, like Solomon, but there are people there he you'd like, they should not be there. People like Rahab and Sarah. Who, when Sarah finds out she's gonna get pregnant, as a 90, a hundred year old or whatever it is, she laughs at the Lord.

She's and she's there's no way you're, and I love that. That's just, she's described as a woman of faithfulness through moments of unfaithfulness. She is still a woman of faith. Oh, it's so helpful for me. I can say Geoff , there were seasons in that, in my own journey of walking through the.

Walking along the river in the desert. So many movement moments of lack, of faith and lack of trust and yet still God's providence and care through, through it all is just a as astounding. Yeah. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: do you mind, I don't know how to ask. 

Faith and Family: Personal Reflections

Geoff Holsclaw: Like sharing some, like how [00:08:00] was it that added abstract level, so you don't have to, if you want, you can get into some of those stories or seasons, but like how has, as you reflect, maybe going all the way back to your early faith formation, like what was the spiritual environment that you were raised with and then did it help you in those seasons or was that early kind of faith formation?

Did it harm you? Was it actually part of the thing that was making that season so

A. J. Swoboda: Yeah. I don't have. In, in my adult years, Geoff I

one of the greatest jealousies that I experience in my life it's one of the greatest envys I have. I've got a lot of envys. I often experience I, I call it monk envy, but the envy of people that get to go live in a monastery by themselves out in the wilderness. I sometimes wish I could do that.

But one, one of the, one of the envys that I. Most find myself getting caught up by is the envy of people who were raised in really awesome Christian homes who had dads that really were there for him. Because I didn't [00:09:00] have that and it, and I wasn't raised in a Christian home.

And my dad with all of his flaws, I love him with all of his flaw. So he wasn't, he just wasn't, he wasn't able to be there. And I, so I've always had this deep jealousy 'cause my family of origin. Not much. There was not much spiritual heritage given to me. And in fact, you'll find this interesting.

I don't know if I've ever shared this with anybody. When I became a Christian at 16, the, my experience of hearing about Jesus, really for the first time at least memorably the first time was I was sitting in my math class in high school, and the two girls behind me were arguing about when Jesus was coming back.

They had been reading this book called The Left Behind Series, and were thinking about, when Jesus would return and all these sort of things. And I went home and I started reading the Bible and that really was the beginning of my story is I started following Jesus around about 16. But I've, in my years since then, have done a lot of work to [00:10:00] understand my relationship with my father and why I was so drawn to Jesus.

Because I remember listening to them say Jesus was coming back. Jesus was coming back, and I think at that age, I was so hungry for my dad to come home that the idea that God was coming back was like God was meeting me in, God was actually meeting me in the place where I did not have a secure attached relationship with my dad, like God was meeting me by being the person, being the one that my dad couldn't be.

Because I did not have, I had a very ambivalent attachment relationship with my dad. It was not secure by any stretch of the imagination. And I think when I heard Jesus is coming back, my little 16-year-old brain heard dad's coming home.

Geoff Holsclaw: Wow.

A. J. Swoboda: and in a way like that lack of attachment that I experienced as a kid was what set me up to need God. in a weird [00:11:00] way, like the, the painful origin, the pa painful origin story is what set it was a setup. It was, it, I'm not saying God did that. I'm saying God is the master composter who knows how to take a pile of junk and turn it into soil, 

Geoff Holsclaw: yeah.

A. J. Swoboda: But there wasn't much there, Geoff to speak of in terms of much of a spiritual heritage that led to.

What I do now, I really, I was pulled out of the fire at 16. The Lord radically saved me and I, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing right now if it wasn't for the Jesus, for sure. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: You, you said that you don't have a spiritual heritage, but in one sense I could turn it around and be like you have an insecure spiritual heritage as well as a relational heritage. That's, not to get all since you brought up left behind, we can bring up the gods shaped whole kinda language, right?

It feels like that's of the same era, like in one sense, like you were turning to Jesus for that lack of kind of attachment of having a secure attachment figure and I think that. [00:12:00] In one sense that's like beautiful and right. Did you find that maybe your experience was had a push pull with God about that?

Did sometimes maybe you started expecting God to be like your dad or was it the opposite where God was just filling in what was lacked? Could

A. J. Swoboda: my the, I would say the greatest work of my young adult years and my first half of life since my turn to the Lord has been allowing my, allowing God to be, to reparent me. To show me what I didn't get and what and what I needed and so desperately needed.

I have often wondered, I don't think I'm unique. I think we've all got broken fathers and mothers and I don't know. I wonder if in God's unique providence he's actually, in a way chosen to use those insecure, paternal maternal relationships as a. As a means to draw our fragmented [00:13:00] se selves to God.

Like that, that, that is one of the ways that he chooses to most meet us. But Geoff , to your question, if my spiritual director were in the room and I gave him a dollar for every single time, our conversation centered around how God is different than my father, he, I, he'd be a very I, my son wouldn't be going to college, bro.

Yeah. There's this there's this line that that Carl Jung had in one of his journals that's gotten some attention in recent years in which he talks about par the relationship between parents and their children and how often parents the void in the parent's heart and life.

It really does tremendous harm in the life of the child. He has this really singular line where he says, the single greatest threat to a child is the unlived life of the parent.

We see this all the time with parents who force their kids to do every sport under the sun and be perfect. Why?

Because they're essentially using their child as a means to [00:14:00] make up for what they perceive as their own lack. And those parental imprints that we receive. Can only be healed by a God that doesn't project upon us his own failures.

when we say we have a perfect father, that's really good news for me because my God is not trying to find his identity and my success.

He's perfect by himself and he's allowed, he doesn't have to project his un unlived life onto me. I, for parents with, for kids who have parents that, project a lot of their stuff onto their kids, that's phenomenal news. Our God is emotionally differentiated. That's great, man.

Oh.

Geoff Holsclaw: and that so be between two like theology professors and biblical scholars. You know that's why like the Trinity matters. It's just like God is eternally self-fulfilled as a differentiated and yet in relationship person in the Trinity Father, son, and the Holy Spirit, such that anything. All of our interactions with God come out of an overflow, [00:15:00] not out of a lack.

There is no need to fill in gaps. There's no need to heal a wound or something in God, in our relationship. And that, that, that reduces the anxiety in us. Now, a lot of us have faith formations and churches and our own lived experiences that kind of teach a Christianity that's different than that.

That ups the anxiety tragically, and that ups the burdens and the workloads. But ultimately it's, it's Luke 15 and the father going out, enjoy rejoicing over us and taking this, the stupid kids who made a bunch of bad decisions and throwing a ring and a robe on 'em and bringing them back in and throwing a party.

And that's, that's the abundant life that God offers us. I love it. I've found too, I'd love to hear then how you, maybe you're evangelistic track but, cyd and I have really taken the perspective of basically the gospel, the way it works in our society, the best is a welcome home.

It is like an off, an offer of a new family to people rather than, do [00:16:00] you know where you're going when you die? Or Jesus takes your sins away or all and I believe those things are true, right? But I don't feel like that's an it. Have you found that to be true for yourself or how.

A. J. Swoboda: Oh, yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: How have some of these things changed for you?

A. J. Swoboda: Yeah. The, certainly the gospel, the therapeutic, I think a good theologian would separate the would separate the ontological effects of atonement from the therapeutic effects of atonement.

And what I mean by that is. Ontologically, something happens at the cross that simply is beyond us. We can't name it. It's like the, there a change of relationship in our relationship with the creator of the universe. There's something that happens that I just think is too mysterious for us to understand.

Okay. That the, on how you describe it, whatever theory you choose to use, that's fine. But it, no language that we have can perfectly explain the ontological impacts of the gospel. But the but the therapeutic effects of the gospel are how we personally experience, you could call it the phenomenological experience of the gospel.

How we experience [00:17:00] the gospel changes from culture to culture. It is not that the gospel's changed, it's the

Geoff Holsclaw: just to jump in, when you say the therapeutic effects, you don't just mean the

A. J. Swoboda: no. I'm

Geoff Holsclaw: it's more like the, like a physical therapist or just the curative or

‌

A. J. Swoboda: I think probably the better word would be the either experiential or phenomenological dynamics of the gospel. That is how one experience, you could say this is the subjective Cyde of the atonement.

That is how people feel and experience the atonement. I think that changes from person to person, not just culture to culture, person to person, for example for the person who. Lives in an honor shame culture where they are bo bear. They have experienced years of generational and or cultural shame for something that they've done.

They've been driven out of the city, they've been hated, they've been cut off. The way that person is going to experience the gospel is very different than the way that a person who lives in a suburb who has everything that they want and everything is fine, [00:18:00] experiences the gospel. The gospel is the same for both of them, but their experience of the two is the same.

So when I hear the experience of both is gonna be very different. So when you say that you find the imagery of the coming home, right? Why am why are we all so homesick at home? Why, why are we always why are we always homesick at home? What? And that there's this element of coming home to what is real and true and good.

Is meeting, probably meeting a need in the human soul that is unique to Western culture. I heard some Leonard Sweet once said in a lecture, I heard him give, he said he's a Wesleyan theologian. He gave a, he had this just passing comment where he said, in most cultures, people in, if you listen to the music of most cultures.

Most cultures will sing about the thing that people don't experience or have. So when you, if you go to [00:19:00] most an African nation that's drought stricken, what will they sing about? They'll sing about water.

If you go to a lonely society, what will they sing about A place like Japan they'll ing about friendship.

And if you think about America, what are we always thinking about? What are we always singing about? We're singing about love.

Geoff Holsclaw: Right.

A. J. Swoboda: There's, we sing about the thing that we don't have, we are, we're longing for. And he made this comment. And in a way, the gospel will hit different people in different ways because it meet, it meets them where they are fractured the most.

So in a society like yours that says, Hey, it's like coming home it's returning, it's the prodigal being welcomed by the father. It's the barbecue of the dad. It gives the signet ring and the robe and, there's a reason that hits for people, right? There's a reason there. There's a, an old Japanese there's an old Japanese like saying that says Rain.

When it rains, rain is always silent. Like you never hear rain until it hits something.

[00:20:00] And then when it hits, you hear it, but it's silent until it rains. And that's the truth with the gospel. Is that we, when it hits a person, that's when you see it,

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

A. J. Swoboda: it hits somebody and how it hits them. That's how you see it is in its effects on what it does with people.

‌

A. J. Swoboda: So for somebody like myself, the gospel did not and the primary experience that I had at the gospel is not feeling forgiveness for endless things of sins that I've done. I was a pretty good kid actually.

For me, the gospel was dad coming home. It wasn't me coming home. It was actually dad coming home.

Geoff Holsclaw: So how has that, going back to some of your early kind of statements about. Following the river and the wilderness in your own life and going places that would not have longed to go, how does that story fit together for you of, I'm a kid, longing for dad to come home to. Now I'll do hard things [00:21:00] and follow Jesus wherever he leads.

Like how, not that you can retell your whole life, but like for some people that doesn't make sense. It's if I was gonna find this thing I was always looking for, then I'd feel free, or then I'd be fulfilled, then I could do whatever I want. I wouldn't be held back by my demons or my constraints.

But you tell a different story. It sounds like that.

A. J. Swoboda: Yeah, I don't know, Geoff . I think you're asking a good question. I don't know. I can't say the older that I get, I can't say that I'm increasingly doing the stuff that I want to do

yet. 

Surrendering to God's Will

A. J. Swoboda: I find that in the midst of that surrender,

in the midst of that willingness to do. The things that maybe my desires don't align with. There's a subterranean joy that is, is not unlike, it's not like a joy I've ever experienced. There's a weird, there's a weird subterranean joy that comes with submitting your life, surrendering your life to God.

I don't, I really don't. 

Surrendering to Divine Love

A. J. Swoboda: Maybe I don't have a

Geoff Holsclaw: David [00:22:00] Benner that No, that's all right. That's like the David Benner's book is, surrender to love that. Surrendering your desires to most people is dangerous. But a God who has proven and demonstrated his love in this, that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. That is a love that you can trust, that you can surrender to, that you can offer your vulnerabilities

I.

A. J. Swoboda: yeah. 

The Paradox of Fulfilled Desires

A. J. Swoboda: I had I don't, I'd have to go do a deep dive in my notes to fig to find it, but I had read at some point a really interesting, a peer-reviewed study of a guy who, I think it was actually a team of scholars who looked at the relationship between depression and suicidality and, one's perceived fulfillment of sexual desires.

So the question was like, does getting all of your sexual desires met lead to a happier life? That's basically what the research was asking. And this, it was peer reviewed work. Found that actually there's an inverse relationship

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh

A. J. Swoboda: between getting all of your sexual desires met and true deep flourishing happiness.[00:23:00] 

And I, when I read that study and had come across it in a way, Geoff I'm not trying to make a point about sexuality here. I'm trying to make a point that I'm not convinced by the American. Expression of the gospel that true happiness is, can be defined as getting everything you want.

It's just not, that's not it. And in fact, when I do get everything I want I find myself to be extremely melancholy and I don't it's it's a weird effect to, to have everything. I am good when I have some sort of cross I, I. I'm really a better person

Geoff Holsclaw: so let me try this

A. J. Swoboda: of bot cut.

Cross to bear. To bear.

Geoff Holsclaw: Lemme try this out on you because this is how I, 'cause I don't think it is about 

A. J. Swoboda: no, that's not my point. Yeah. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: No, I know it's not, but I like the category I put it in. So I say this is, God created us on the sixth day, the same day as the rest of the

But.

Only humanity is invited into the seventh day, the day of rest, the day of Sabbath, which is like that spiritual heritage or reality. And I think this is [00:24:00] where, and you mentioned early on, so you're bringing this all together. AJ you mentioned wanting to be a monk. And and a lot of times a monks are a cynicism.

They get a hard. Rap about kind of the extremism. But I think their conviction was is there's, man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. And I think that, you know what all of our physical satisfaction or all of our physical desires are fulfilled, whether it's sexual, whether it's, just physical hunger or things like that, or delight.

There is a sense in which our spirits wither that. And then that macho, but when, not that we have to be a rigorous asceticism, mortify the body, how whatever tradition, whatever tradition you come from talks about that. But there is a sense in which when you cultivate those deeper spiritual pursuits, or like you say, just obediently, follow Jesus where it leads me, there is a nourishing of the soul, like you said, like I've never been happier carrying my cross.

That's the life of the spirit.

A. J. Swoboda: Not only but I have no idea how you're gonna name this episode, by the way. We've

Geoff Holsclaw: neither. [00:25:00] Why don't you let me know?

A. J. Swoboda: but while you bring up the animals and humans in the sixth Day of creation it is equally notable that when you compare the humans, and this is in I do a whole section on this in my book, the Gift of Thorns. When you compare the humans and the animals in the story, the animals are created in Paris.

So they're created immediately in Paris together, which means there's no, there's, they're immediate, they're immediately man and woman together, man and woman together, man and woman together. Yet in, in the d in the beautiful, inspired. Creation of humans. Day six. In Genesis two, the man is created before the woman and has to wait for her.

And there was a theo a theologian years ago, Bal Herz v Baltar, who, who talked about how the humans, this is a distinct element of the Imago De, is that the humans are the one to be a human is to wait,

not pursue your glands, to not. Follow your stomach to not have a God of the stomach, that you can wait, [00:26:00] and which is a distinct difference between the animals and humans.

My dog does not have the capacity to withhold his desires for bones. I do sometimes I do, but nor do I eat bones. But my point remaining the same is that there's a unique element and bazar says this. Isn't it interesting that the creatures in the garden, other than God that have the most power.

Meaning the most ability to destroy or care for the garden are the ones with the most power are the ones required to wait.

power does not have the any capacity to wait, unrestrained, it always leads to destruction.

Geoff Holsclaw: Ah, that's like a whole nother podcast We should

A. J. Swoboda: yeah, to, so when, I mean if we have power. But don't have restraint to Wait.

That's, you look across, look at the political spectrum. We don't need to go. Yeah. Yeah. So power without restraint is

Geoff Holsclaw: AJ is restraining himself right

A. J. Swoboda: Look at this right now in the spot. Do you see it?

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. He is [00:27:00] restraint. Just to add to that is a lot of the. Aesthetic writers would say, I was raised evangelical with a big Baptist and reformed kind of view, which is that God placed the tree of good and evil in the garden to let humanity know.

That he's the law giver and that they're the law follower, right? It's this very but the Eastern Orthodox tradition in the early kind of monastics would say that was just the first fast. Like they, they had to have some, they had to have something that was appealing to the eye that they would restrain themselves.

From partaking in for, and the eastern church and the early church fathers would say that fruit was supposed to be theirs eventually anyways, but they had to develop right, a certain restraint in order to handle that kind of power and knowledge. And so it's not. It.

A. J. Swoboda: yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: So fasting is the first spiritual practice and

A. J. Swoboda: really funny.

Geoff Holsclaw: in the garden

A. J. Swoboda: The first fast 

Geoff Holsclaw: so of course, the monastics would come up with that.

So aj ha he is 

A. J. Swoboda: he, [00:28:00] let's talk in the third person.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. But all you listeners, AJ is prolific. He's written books on the Sabbath gift of Thorns, which I had mentioned, so about this whole taking the path and discipling our desires. He's written on that. But you've come out, just, you're about to

A. J. Swoboda: Oh 

Geoff Holsclaw: with a recent book which is about becoming teachable, a teachable spirit, learning the virtues from strangers or learning the virtue of learning from strangers, enemies, and absolutely anybody. Where, can you let us know where did

A. J. Swoboda: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this is this actually comes from a pretty comes concrete story. For me, most books, most written things come out of a real story. Why? Why did it come? And it came from, for me, an experience of. Watching the news, this was a couple years ago. I was watching the news, by the way, dumb thing to do.

Don't watch the news. Who

Geoff Holsclaw: Who does that anymore? How old are you? You watch the news?

A. J. Swoboda: I was watching the news and I was watching this story of a woman, a young-ish, [00:29:00] 25, 30-year-old woman who's a in the political world. She's not a, an a, an elected official, but she was a worked for somebody who was an elected official and she had gotten caught up in.

This kind of political she'd gotten involved with some nefarious individuals and did some stupid things and never hurt anybody. It was never, that sort of thing. But she just done some stupid stuff and she got caught for it. And the story that I was watching was her, on her in her trial.

And she was, 25, 30 years old, new in her career. And she's giving a statement in the trial and I'm watching her give the statement and she. Man, you can tell when somebody's tears are real and when they're not. And this woman wept in front of the court. These were not crocodile tears, they were real tears.

And she was saying, I was wrong. I'm sorry. I'm gonna learn a lesson from this and I wanna be a different person. She's young in her career, who doesn't make something, do something stupid earlier in their years. Okay. So I'm watching her and I am getting like super vulnerable, like super emotional watching her.[00:30:00] 

Be humble because we never see that in our culture anymore. We, it's so ra rare to watch someone in the public space now, own their stuff. It's so rare. And so I watched that and LA that evening. I made the second mistake of that day, which was I got on social media. And I was hoping like this could be a moment of like redemption.

Let the girl learn her lesson. It's okay. Be a, and I watched, I got on and it took me about 10 seconds to see, the entire other Cyde of the political spectrum just dunked on this girl. Calling her every name under the sun, that she's a complete failure. She's so stupid. Had she listened to us, she wouldn't have done this.

And I'm watching this, Geoff and the combination of this woman who was willing to be [00:31:00] vulnerable and earn or and own her stuff, combined with a culture that's dunking on her for her, quote unquote stupidity. I had this epiphany that. That is why it has become nearly impossible, or it has become so risky to embody being a teachable person in our world

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

A. J. Swoboda: because we live in a world that demands that everybody repents.

But the minute that they do, we tar and feather them rather than celebrating the fact that we're looking at a humble person owning their stuff and saying i've been wrong. What should happen is that we collectively take a deep breath, look at a woman who's owning her stuff and saying, this is awesome.

Learn a lesson, don't do it again. And I think, Geoff , what? What that did for me, that was the start of this book. Although I've been writing this book for a long time, but we have weaponized humility, [00:32:00] or I should say we don't. It's not that we've weaponized humility. We now dunk on teachable people.

Geoff Holsclaw: right,

A. J. Swoboda: And we shame people willing to risk learning and growing.

And I'm putting my, I'm putting my foot down. That's what this book is about. I'm putting my foot down and I'm saying, in a world of just shaming and mean-spirited spiritedness, and one upmanship where we would rather dunk on people than honor the gift of God in their life. And rather than seeing people as image bearing creations of God, people that we use to make political points that the Christian must be different,

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

A. J. Swoboda: and that we cultivate the humility teachability to be learners in a world that is just it's just a, it's a forest of shame.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. In our kind of hot take society where everyone has to have an opinion, you have to be, you have to present yourself as [00:33:00] being informed. I know, 

A. J. Swoboda: Be because to sit, because to admit that you're not informed is perceived as somebody giving up their power.

Geoff Holsclaw: right.

A. J. Swoboda: Because if I don't know something, then I'm not powerful, and I and you now have power over me. And honestly, how many times I'm sitting here in my office at the university, how many times have I had students?

Sit in my classroom who don't want to be taught because they have had teachers that teach them through shame and made them feel horrible for not knowing something.

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

A. J. Swoboda: Yeah. Good teachers don't teach through shame. Do you know who our teacher is? This is so cool. This is a little Dallas Willard for you.

You'll like this. I know you like some D Dub. You're D dub guy. Okay. Dallas Willards. He, he When we read the right the story of Jesus, we find that he says in his, near the end of his earthly life, he says, I'm gonna send the teacher or I'm gonna send the Spirit who will lead you into all truth, right?

And the idea of being led into all truth is that you know who your teacher is. The spirit of [00:34:00] God is your teacher. We have a, we don't have a teacher in the classroom. We have a teacher inCyde of us. The teacher is in us. That, which means that anytime I learn something that is true, it is the spirit's gift to lead me into into that thing.

Here's why I love this. Dallas Willard would always talk about how God, that Jesus is always the smartest room person in any room he is ever in.

It doesn't matter if it's in a mechanic, if it's a carpenter, if it's a doctor, if it's an astrophysicist. If it's a biologist, if it's a pastor, if it's a Bible scholar in every single room Jesus would ever be in, he is the smartest person in the room.

And I think that when Jesus sent the Spirit, it's His spirit in us, which means that only by virtue of the Spirit can you truly be the kind of learner we were created to be.

To be a Christian means to be a learner, to be a Christian. In fact, the word disciple literally means. To learn what they taste to be [00:35:00] a learner.

Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: and it seems that. Like you said, Jesus was always the smartest person there, but he never lorded that

A. J. Swoboda: Yeah. That's right.

Geoff Holsclaw: and only the people that would get the sharp end of that stick were the unteachable ones, the Pharisees, the scribes, the priests sometimes Peter, who were taking that position. But otherwise, he's not just. He is the, because you said the word vulnerable a bit ago and I was literally writing it down while you were talking about, but I just had an interview with someone else and we were talking about the connection between honesty and humility.

And it also, it does feel like people don't want to be honest about, especially about their pains and hurts, and their limitations and the vulnerabilities. And so then there's also a lack of humility. It just seems there's, the old may, maybe you've seen this. It's like one of these cartoon memes, what are, it's with a robot voice and it's like just pencil sketch.

It's what are the three hardest things to say in the English language? I'm sorry. I love you. And Worster sauce. That's, and then it [00:36:00] just stumbles worst. W

A. J. Swoboda: Who said that? Is that you? 

Geoff Holsclaw: No. It's just one of these memes. It's one

A. J. Swoboda: Oh, I see.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. It's one of these cartoons. But really the third one, not w Ashire Sau, but like the third one is to say something like, I don't know I'm sorry, I love you and I don't know, like I don't have an opinion on that, or I'm gonna have to look into that, or I'll just. won't add my opinion because it's not very well formed. And

A. J. Swoboda: I can't say wor assure.

Geoff Holsclaw: exactly

A. J. Swoboda: assure.

Geoff Holsclaw: where's, th we'll just end on that note, right? 'cause I don't know if we can bring it back, but thank you so much. 

Conclusion and Resources

Geoff Holsclaw: Where can people find some of the stuff you're doing and your books? You also have a podcast, which I haven't brought up.

Could you just share about that too?

A. J. Swoboda: I would just say, hey if you can buy a book, get it at the mom pa store down the street, if possible they should have a teachable spirit. Elsewhere. You can get anywhere else. Books are sold. Probably the best way to keep up with what I'm doing. I'm like the worst social media guy in the history of all social media.

Geoff Holsclaw: So your mental health must be

A. J. Swoboda: I'm doing all right.

Geoff Holsclaw: Maybe not.

A. J. Swoboda: I'm doing all [00:37:00] right. I have a fairly I'm pretty proud of it, a fairly a fairly decent weekly devotional that I write called the low level Theologian, and you can find that just by looking up the low level theologian. It's just like

Geoff Holsclaw: believe that's a sub a substack,

A. J. Swoboda: It is a substack, but it's a weekly devotional that I do on Thursdays, and that's a fun way to keep up with the things I'm doing.

Geoff Holsclaw: Nice. And then you're also, did you mention slow theology? Did I

A. J. Swoboda: my friend Nijay Gupta and I host a We, we feel is a Stellar two and a half Star podcast called Slow Theology

Geoff Holsclaw: and a quarter at least

A. J. Swoboda: Think that's

Geoff Holsclaw: Out of a hundred

A. J. Swoboda: Yeah. But slow Theology comes out. We do about an episode a week, and it's super fun. We love what we get to do, and he and I actually do have a book coming out entitled slow Theology eight Practices to Develop a Resilient Faith in a Chaotic World.

And that will come out next September. So that will be available for all them.

Geoff Holsclaw: And well for our listeners, there is an episode with EJ [00:38:00] about one of his most recent books on the affections,

A. J. Swoboda: Ah, such a good book.

Geoff Holsclaw: Paul and God and love. But yeah, I'm gonna, I already know I'm gonna have one or both of you on later night this year to talk about slow theology. I love that. Thank you so much.

I'm on Eastern Time and you're in Pacific, so I know you still got a bit of your day, but yeah, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna go find a book in unwind, if only. I had a book around here to read that. If only I could find one. God bless and thank you so much.